Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[steveintoronto]

In Toronto? One might hope so - but you have no evidence of that, and it contrasts with stuff coming out of Metrolinx.

Exactly. Now please re-read what I wrote and why. You keep making my point.

I was talking about GO. There's express trains now on the RER routes, which will continue.

Not sure what your comment about Heathrow Express is based on - I haven't seen any definitive decision that there still won't be express trains between Heathrow T2T3 and Paddington. I'm not sure the relevance either, as they have indicated there will still be non-stop express between the Elizabeth Line stations of Reading and Paddington.

All moot....the *HEADWAY* remains 2.5 minutes later being reduced to 2 minutes on the *central section*. That's east of Paddington, where the present Heathrow Express now terminates. Heathrow Express' lease is up on their storage and maintenance shed. The new Heathrow service run by Great Western, Heathrow Connect, will run through the central section and stop at each station. It will take ten minutes longer from Paddington to Heathrow, at less than half the price. But it matters not. The point is *achievable headway* and how other cities are not only planning to do this, some have been doing it for decades.

What's Toronto's problem besides being Toronto?

[...]
On average, the MRT-3 runs 20 trains daily at a speed of at least 40 kilometers per hour with a headway of 4.5 minutes. Since the start of the month, the number of passengers taking the train line which runs from Taft in Pasay City to North Avenue in Quezon City has averaged up to 441,000 every day.

Manalo said that with the upgrade, they would be able to accommodate up to 800,000 passengers daily and run the trains at 60 kph with a headway of just 2.5 minutes.
[...]
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/842420/mrt-eyes-bigger-capacity-faster-trains-in-2017

Guess where? Manila! A Third World country...and the Philippines are far from being the only one.

But not Toronto. It's beyond pathetic...

 

[nfitz]

Exactly. Now please re-read what I wrote and why. You keep making my point.

I have no idea what your point is ... whatever it is, all I know is that you make so many false comments to support it.

If you'd make some simpler, shorter posts, without all the tangents and irrelevant information. I don't understand why there has to be any mention of the Elizabeth Line, or the Paris RER. No one is questioning that it's technically possible to run a frequent service. I'm questioning that there's any relevant information.

Perhaps if you were to start a sentence with "My point is ..." with a handful of words.

All moot....the *HEADWAY* remains 2.5 minutes later being reduced to 2 minutes on the *central section".

Not sure the relevance is - none of the current express services go further than Paddington (what, with that having been the end of the track since 1838).

The new Heathrow service run by TfL will run through the central section and stop at each station.

That's replacing the Heathrow Connect service, which stops at a few Elizabeth Line stations already between Heathrow and Paddington.

 

[steveintoronto]

I have no idea what your point is

And no, GO haven't projected doing this, that's exactly the point! Why haven't they? It's technically possible.

No one is questioning that it's technically possible to run a frequent service.

So you agree that RER could be run on subway headways, is that correct?

Previously posted by others:

This is also false. RER will significantly serve the City of Toronto. The whole point of RER is to transform the system from a suburban rush hour shuttle to a rapid transit system that effectively serves the entire network, including downtown.

He's talking about individual lines. The Paris RER runs each line at frequencies similar to our subway - up to 30 trains per hour.

I don't understand. If the lack of terminals is a barrier to Crossrail type frequencies for RER, won't the addition of the Unilever and Pearson hubs facilitate greater frequency?

But for some reason, the point is being missed by at least one poster.

 

[nfitz]

So you agree that RER could be run on subway headways, is that correct?

Of course it can, if it's designed to do that. Didn't Seoul demonstrate that on Line 1 in the early 1970s? I'd think there'd be examples in Tokyo too - but I've never been there.

I haven't seen anyone saying it can't be done.

I'm saying, there's no plans to do this, that I am aware of.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The Subways vs LRT debate is evolving to a Subways vs RER debate

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

The Subways vs LRT debate is evolving to a Subways vs RER debate

I think werther or not RER/ Dumb track get built we are going to need the relief lines there aren't enough railroad tracks near to everyone to provide adequate serve on it plus we din't know what the cost structure for RER will be if it's anything like UPX or Go Train most pole would probably just stick with the TTC as it serves more locations in the city.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I think werther or not RER/ Dumb track get built we are going to need the relief lines there aren't enough railroad tracks near to everyone to provide adequate serve on it plus we din't know what the cost structure for RER will be if it's anything like UPX or Go Train most pole would probably just stick with the TTC as it serves more locations in the city.

I mean tunnelled RER.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I mean tunnelled RER.

I doubt we will see that at all. The only new tunnel likely to be dug after the Scarborough subway extension will be the DRL, I don't see the city giving approval for RER tunnels if they want to add to the TTC system.

 

[MisterF]

Whether that's true or not (and I really don't think it's going to provide much service, with the talk of 15-minute frequencies and higher fares - there own modelling showed that ridership would double with TTC fares, and double again with more frequent trains - however QP isn't willing to put that type of money in) it still is neither "new or extended transit lines". The lines aren't new. The lines aren't extended. Increasing the frequency has been discussed for years, as have this handful of new stations.

I get your point about new and extended lines, but to be fair, some of the GO lines have been extended. As for 15 minute service, that's on each individual line. Two RER lines converging, each with 15 minute service, results in pretty decent frequencies. Three lines converging will match subway frequency if they have them evenly spaced out. How the RER enhancements commonly known as Smarttrack will add to that is anybody's guess.

I do share the frustrations about the lack of new funded lines in the city of Toronto. The DRL is badly needed and long overdue. Also the fact that lines that were funded 8 years ago still haven't even started construction shows that there's something wrong with the system.

There's nothing in the RER plans that relieve the subways much. The Richmond Hill line isn't going to relieve Bloor-Yonge. The Stouffville line isn't going to relieve the Bloor line, much (it might even make it worse, with those travelling to UT and other points north of Queen), getting on the Danforth subway at Kennedy.

This is true and it shows that RER won't reduce the need for the DRL. Both are needed IMO and both will benefit central Toronto neighbourhoods.

 

[ssiguy2]

The DRL must be RER. This idea of RER running every 15 minutes s a starting point. With Toronto's smallish subway system it is very likely that RER will crry more passengers than the subway with 50 years. RER will be a subway with a different name and trains could be running every 5 minutes all day.

As far as QP not paying for the increased service......that exemplifies how entitled Torontonians feel. There is NO other city on the planet where the senior levels of government agree to build 100% of the cost of RER system {or LRT for that matter}. 99% of the planet would give their left nut to have a senior government willing to do that. The only reason RER would be less frequent and not have comparable fares is because Torontonians refuse to accept the notion that they too have to pay for rapid transit.

 

[Avenue]

There is NO other city on the planet where the senior levels of government agree to build 100% of the cost of RER system.

This is an extremely limited / North America centric view of how things work elsewhere.

 

[nfitz]

I get your point about new and extended lines, but to be fair, some of the GO lines have been extended.

Within or significantly servicing the City of Toronto? That was the quote. City of Hamilton maybe ... Kitchener ... Barrie ... Gormley ... and now Bowmanville. But not City of Toronto. I guess they are adding a new GO Station at Mount Dennis and Caledonia on the Eglinton line ... and shifting the York University stop to Downsview Park

As for 15 minute service, that's on each individual line. Two RER lines converging, each with 15 minute service, results in pretty decent frequencies.

Offhand, I think that the only lines where RER converge is Danforth and Scarborough (and the two new stops between Danforth and Union. How many trains will stop though.

Three lines converging will match subway frequency if they have them evenly spaced out. How the RER enhancements commonly known as Smarttrack will add to that is anybody's guess.

Where are 3 lines converging?

 

[Kitsune]

The Subways vs LRT debate is evolving to a Subways vs RER debate

Seems like there is anti-subway agenda at times on this forum. We could use a "dislike" button beside that like button ....

 

[crs1026]

Seems like there is anti-subway agenda at times on this forum. We could use a "dislike" button beside that like button ....

I don't think it's anti-subway per se. Some have challenged whether the Relief Line could be something cheaper (like LRT) - which is an entirely reasonable and prudent thing to test..... transit should be scaled to the particular application rather than being pro-LRT or pro-subway. Personally, I'm convinced that DRL has to be full subway given ridership projections etc, but others may have other views.

As to Subway vs RER, some people may be so in love with the RER concept that they are inclined to wax poetic about what it could become. I don't see any sign that the ML planning is leaning in their direction. But it's in the eye of the beholder, I guess. RER continues to be conceived as a "regional" system that in particular brings people in and out of the city center from much farther afield. All the documentation indicates that until about 2035, it won't be more than a 10-15 minute headway. It ought to be much better integrated with local transit, and if reconfigured in the 416 it can deliver much more value to within-416 transit, but that is at best complementary to the subway and LRT network rather than replacing any of it. Tunnelling on a different alignment is an interesting concept given that Union Station is bursting at the seams, but it isn't really fundable for the coming decade at least.

Personally, I think we should be seeking RER as well as DRL. As to what RER becomes, well, let's crawl before we run. Don't let the rhapsodising about a 2-minute-headway RER get in the way of just getting on with DRL.

- Paul

 

[MisterF]

Seems like there is anti-subway agenda at times on this forum. We could use a "dislike" button beside that like button ....

I hope that's not directed at me. I'm simply acknowledging the role that RER will play, which will be an important one throughout the city. That has nothing to do with being pro or anti subway.

The whole idea of being pro or anti LRT/subway/RER is just a symptom of how dysfunctional the transit discourse in this city has become. Being for one technology doesn't mean you're against another.

Within or significantly servicing the City of Toronto? That was the quote. City of Hamilton maybe ... Kitchener ... Barrie ... Gormley ... and now Bowmanville. But not City of Toronto. I guess they are adding a new GO Station at Mount Dennis and Caledonia on the Eglinton line ... and shifting the York University stop to Downsview Park

Lines that serve (or will serve) the city have been extended, yes.

Offhand, I think that the only lines where RER converge is Danforth and Scarborough (and the two new stops between Danforth and Union. How many trains will stop though.

Well how many trains will stop and at which stations remains to be seen. Lines also converge in the west end between the airport and Union.

Where are 3 lines converging?

Between Lansdowne and Union: the Kitchener line, Barrie line, and UP Express. That becomes 4 lines where they join Lakeshore. Granted, the current plan is to not have all stations serve all lines so it's not as simple as adding all the lines together. Another wrinkle is the Smarttrack plan as it currently stands would increase the frequencies of the Stouffville and Kitchener RER lines beyond the 15 minute base case. So at Unilever Station for example you could see a train every 5 minutes or so.