Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[steveintoronto]

The western extension is a bit of a different story.

I have trouble believing the stats used to debase the argument for the western relief leg. One only has to ride in from the west-end in peak to realize the trains are at or past capacity. Perhaps the Spadina leg is the relief valve that tips the scales, but that alone can't render the western need as inferior.

I have a number of well known quibbles as to the whole approach taken on the RL, but if the case is assumed as stated, then the western leg is very easy to build relative to the eastern leg, it can be surface run for much of the way northwest from Queen and Dufferin, but if the TBMs are in place at Osgoode, why not plan on keeping them running through? The heads and other details might need to be changed due to the different soil condition, but that's par for the course anyway.

If the "short" line is to be funded, then it would be idiotic not to keep running through to the Georgetown Corridor and then north to Dundas West, perhaps a stop farther if and when the Midtown comes into being.

In for a penny, in for a pound. The cost of the western leg would be an addition of perhaps 50% more cost on top of the eastern one. Not cheap by any means, but a wise investment to do both as one project in two stages or at the very least, plan to doing so at this point in time before the final scheme for phase 1 is set.

 

[Hopkins123]

This thing will not be extended for quite a while. Look at Sheppard and Don Mills. The tunnel is super deep, and that means it is very expensive to extend. If this is built as planned with deep tunnels, then City Hall will the last stop for a couple of decades.

That's why the DRL shouldn't be phased, at least not for such a short segment. Pape to Osgoode isn't enough trackage.

The Eglinton-Crosstown will be 19 kms as it's first phase. The Bloor-Danforth was originally built from Keele to Woodbine, a 11 kilometre stretch.

A 20 kilometre long DRL from Keele and St Clair to Don Mills and Eglinton, with up to 24 stations, is what ought to be proposed to the public.

At the very least the initial construction should tackle the big hurdles like the multiple Don River Valley crossings and multiple subway interchanges. That's where the majority of the expense will stem from and will be easier to accomplish in today's dollars than those 25 years from now when it will likely exceed $1 billion per kilometre to extend subways.

It actually may be wise to build the DRL like the Crosstown was, starting from opposite ends of the city and converging in the middle. I just don't see how we can stop the DRL short of Spadina, for instance, with it's 55,000 daily riders or even Bathurst with 20,000. It would be unwise to leave it to chance that any of these intersections will ever see a subway in the foreseeable future if the most is not made out of that initial DRL construction.

 

[steveintoronto]

That's why the DRL shouldn't be phased, at least not for such a short segment. Pape to Osgoode isn't enough trackage.

The Eglinton-Crosstown will be 19 kms as it's first phase. The Bloor-Danforth was originally built from Keele to Woodbine, a 11 kilometre stretch.

A 20 kilometre long DRL from Keele and St Clair to Don Mills and Eglinton, with up to 24 stations, is what ought to be proposed to the public.

At the very least the initial construction should tackle the big hurdles like the multiple Don River Valley crossings and multiple subway interchanges. That's where the majority of the expense will stem from and will be easier to accomplish in today's dollars than those 25 years from now when it will likely exceed $1 billion per kilometre to extend subways.

It actually may be wise to build the DRL like the Crosstown was, starting from opposite ends of the city and converging in the middle. I just don't see how we can stop the DRL short of Spadina, for instance, with it's 55,000 daily riders or even Bathurst with 20,000. It would be unwise to leave it to chance that any of these intersections will ever see a subway in the foreseeable future if the most is not made out of that initial DRL construction.

Agreed with all your points, albeit some details contentious, but the bottom line is that for "the most expensive subway in Toronto's history" it has be more than just a thread through The Pape Entitlement.

For that amount of investment, it has to serve a much greater function. And with more than just "four car trains". Do it in stages, by all means, but don't stop moving onto the next when one is finished. BurlOak is right about the north side of the valley though, which is why I've always opted for this being a spur of the Don Valley RER. The valley has to be the way north until funding permits the Don Mills option. Btw: Thank you for the Spadina and Bathurst numbers, that ties into the wisdom of the northern end of those routes serving Dupont and Summerhill stations on the Midtown line as well as the B-D line.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Perhaps I am revealing my youth a bit, but I will be disappointed if that is all we got to. Mt. Dennis to Fairview Mall in my lifetime hopefully!

Even though the past few years has tried it's very best, the optimism hasn't been beaten out of me yet!

Don River Line! Don River Line!

I am also open to the DRL being blue on the map.

====

Anyway, we just need to get digging on the stub. I would love to be able to tack on Eglinton to phase 1 if possible, but really we just need to get started on this thing.

The moment it opens, we will hear North York screaming to have it extended to Sheppard.

Extending it to Queen West is also easy and quick pickings for future politicians. If there is one thing good about the politicization of transit in this region, is that it makes pushing for extensions easier.

Eglinton (Mount Dennis) to Eglinton (Science Centre) within our lifetimes would bring tears of joy to my eyes.

I'm with both of you. The Don Mills section should go to Highway 7 and Leslie at some point And the west should go to Etobicoke or up on Jane Street.

 

[nfitz]

I'm with both of you. The Don Mills section should go to Highway 7 and Leslie at some point And the west should go to Etobicoke or up on Jane Street.

... and turn right to Unionville. And then a 2-stop extension to Peterborough (via Pickering International Spaceport).

 

[salsa]

The DRL *even in the short form* is "Toronto's most expensive subway project ever". And they're building it for four car subway trains. Go figure...By all means build it, do it yesterday, but do it with the future in mind, not the past. Once you bore with modern methods,(TBMs) you're stuck with that size.

Where did you hear that the DRL will use four car subway trains?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Initial trainset configuration will be four-car sets, since that is all that is necessary to meet anticipated 2031 demand. This will be expandable to six-car, or perhaps even eight-car sets, as demand increases over time.

 

[nfitz]

Initial trainset configuration will be four-car sets, since that is all that is necessary to meet anticipated 2031 demand. This will be expandable to six-car, or perhaps even eight-car sets, as demand increases over time.

Is this documented anywhere? Especially the eight-car set bit - the station boxes in the presentations look to be for the standard 500 foot (152 metre) platforms.

I thought the talk was the next set of subway trainsets for Toronto would likely be 7-car sets (to give us a maximum length 152 metre train, rather than the current 139 metre trains).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Is this documented anywhere? Especially the eight-car set bit - the station boxes in the presentations look to be for the standard 500 foot (152 metre) platforms.

I thought the talk was the next set of subway trainsets for Toronto would likely be 7-car sets (to give us a maximum length 152 metre train, rather than the current 139 metre trains).

It was the Yonge Relief Network Study (Technical Report) that suggests eight-car trainsets might be used. The YRNS doesn't really have any sway in the design process though, so if the presentations are saying 500 foot, then it's near certain we're getting traditional six-car sets.

I don't think the costs associated with an additional 120 foot of platform to accommodate eight cars would be worth it anyways; these stations are expensive enough as is. 500 foot should be adequate for 40k pphpd, which is more than enough capacity for our lifetime(s).

If they make any accommodations for eight-car sets at all, I'd hope they'd avoid building any critical mechanical components within 60 feet of either end of the platform at any given station. This'll make the task of expanding the platform length easier, if future Torontonians choose to do so.

 

[BurlOak]

Passenger flow at busy (i.e. interchange) stations is more important than station length. Looking back, If Union, St. George, and Yonge-Bloor where built with 3 platforms, how much better would our headways be?

 

[rbt]

A 20 kilometre long DRL from Keele and St Clair to Don Mills and Eglinton, with up to 24 stations, is what ought to be proposed to the public.

Careful what you wish for.

A single well funded NIMBY near Don Mills station could block the entire line in court by holding up EA approval of some fire exit for the Don Mills station. There is no such thing as approving a part of an EA; it's all or nothing.

The EA, construction, etc. needs to be done in phases BUT you can certainly do all the phases very closely together so construction is continuous (like Ottawa LRT).

 

[nfitz]

It was the Yonge Relief Network Study (Technical Report) that suggests eight-car trainsets might be used. The YRNS doesn't really have any sway in the design process though, so if the presentations are saying 500 foot, then it's near certain we're getting traditional six-car sets.

Oh, the 2015 Metrolinx report. How about that, I'd never noticed that before. In various options it has 6-car trains carrying 1,050 people, 7-car trains carrying 1,225 people, and 8-car trains carrying 1,400 people. All based on 175 people per car.

TTC's current standard is 1,000 for a 6-car T1 train (Bloor-Danforth), and 1,100 for a 6-car TR (articulated) train (Yonge-University).

8 is an odd length - would require a 184-metre long platform - though at that capacity, it would be 7 full length (23 metre) cars requiring a 161-metre long platform, rather than the 152-metre long platforms we have, which would take seven 19-metre cars instead of 23-metres.

I can't really see them making such changes to lengths, for such a small addition. I'd think the next step would be 200-metre long platforms - 9-car trains.

Though recall that Toronto originally had 17 metre long cars, running 8-car trains (though often shorter). You could actually run 9 of those cars in a train - but as they had to run in pairs, they could only do 9.

(though that's what Montreal does ... they run 9-car trains of about 17-metres long - with the same platform lengths we have here. Though the old cars would always run in triplets (3-car, 6-car, or 9-car trains), and the new trains come in a 9-car articulated set.)

My money is on the 152-metre long platforms (500 feet). I daredn't put money on the train and car lengths!

 

[steveintoronto]

Where did you hear that the DRL will use four car subway trains?

I didn't hear it, I read it. More than a few times.

Here's one instance:

[...]

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-94624.pdf

Here's another:

Using the more frequent service, the Relief Line would require 11 4-car trains for service plus spares, and the study presumes that they would be stored at Greenwood Yard. This is not possible without the construction of a new subway yard, currently planned for property near Kipling Station. That is an added cost that will be triggered by various subway options including the RL and some service configurations of the extended BD/Scarborough subway.

https://stevemunro.ca/2016/06/27/torontos-network-plan-2031-part-iv-relief-line/

There's more on-line. I suggest using Google...

And while I'm on the subject, and my cynicism on the stats touted on the entire project, not least RER and the western leg, here's Munro again:

Notable by their absence are SmartTrack and the Crosstown East LRT to UTSC, and the Scarborough Subway is presumed to be the 3-stop version to Sheppard Avenue. Considering that the configuration of the “optimized” Scarborough network changed some months ago, the use of an out-of-date model is surprising.

Indeed. The modelling altogether is suspect. It, the SSE, and Yonge and Spadina extensions all should be reviewed by an independent *sectarian* engineering and business accounting/auditing review panel before any money is invested into any of them.

If they make business sense, then invite the private sector to participate. The Infrastructure Bank might be just the vehicle to do it with.

But besides all of that....how's that funding coming along folks? Seems some don't hesitate to call me out on producing the facts. So speaking of facts, where's the money?

Edit to Add: I highly suggest reading the provisos to the City report linked above. All sorts of assumptions had been made at 5% of the planning having been done. They list them. It's very sobering.

The term "needed overview and review" pertains. Gosh, Tory would never say anything like that at all, would he....?

John Tory ‘furious’ at ballooning costs of Spadina subway extension


Mayor says “accountability … includes people losing their jobs” while the TTC chair is calling for third-party review of all capital projects.

TTC chair Josh Colle, left, is calling for an independent, third-party review of all the TTC’s capital projects, as well as insisting on updates at every TTC management meeting. (DAVID RIDER / TORONTO STAR) |

Betsy PowellCity Hall Bureau
Robert BenzieQueen's Park Bureau Chief
Fri., March 6, 2015

Mayor John Tory is livid that the cost for delayed York-Spadina subway extension has ballooned — repeating what he called a disturbing pattern of large capital project overruns.

He was reacting to revelations in the Star that the troubled line is $400 million over budget.

“We have lurched from one fiasco to another costing taxpayers … tens of millions of dollars, and just as important, delaying the day we get desperately needed transit service to move people,” Tory said Friday at city hall.

“I am furious that this happens over and over and over again.”

He blames what he called “an entrenched culture of nonaccountability at city hall.”
[...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...ost-overruns-on-spadina-subway-extension.html

Good Heavens No! I'm just so shocked...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I didn't hear it, I read it. More than a few times.

Here's one instance:

[...]

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-94624.pdf

Here's another:

As discussed above, the platforms will be long enough to accommodate six-car trainsets, however the line will initially run four-car trains, as that is adequate for anticipated demand. Quick reminder that each of the Yonge, University, Spadina, Bloor-Danforth and Sheppard Line subways initially used four-car trainsets, until there was enough demand for six-car sets. The Relief Line will have the exact same setup

 

[steveintoronto]

Quick reminder that each of the ...University, Spadina, Bloor-Danforth...Line subways initially used four-car trainsets, until there was enough demand for six-car sets.

Fascinating. So the Yonge Trains dropped off two or more cars to go past Union Station? And the Bloor trains going downtown when I rode them through the Y only had four cars? My gosh....how the memory fails. I distinctly remember having to walk back through three cars from the first to get to watch the guard in his cubicle from the first day the train ran from Keele. And he was in the middle of the train.

You do have a reference? Whatever, so the demand to relieve Line 1 and 2 will be fully satiated by these four car trains running every three minutes in 2031?

And how about from the west and north? Satiated too?

Take a close look at not only this reference, but all through the case study:

"based on the traditional 60-year lifescycle". 4-car trains. But you claim that's only "initially".

Is it any wonder that the TTC (who compiled this report) are Tory's target of vitriol?

Mayor John Tory is livid that the cost for delayed York-Spadina subway extension has ballooned — repeating what he called a disturbing pattern of large capital project overruns.

He was reacting to revelations in the Star that the troubled line is $400 million over budget.

“We have lurched from one fiasco to another costing taxpayers … tens of millions of dollars, and just as important, delaying the day we get desperately needed transit service to move people,” Tory said Friday at city hall.

“I am furious that this happens over and over and over again.”

He blames what he called “an entrenched culture of nonaccountability at city hall.”

Not that Tory's any better, but someone had best get their story straight...

And speaking of "reminders":

[...]
The minister emphasized that Queen’s Park, which has already invested $900 million in the subway, cannot be expected to bail out the city.

“As the TTC and the city, and York Region, all three, are aware they are . . . responsible — and have been since day one — for cost overruns that might arise on this project,” said Del Duca.

“It’s absolutely a TTC-run project. It’s a traditional build from the TTC,” he said, noting that, unlike the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, Spadina is not a private-public partnership using the province’s Infrastructure Ontario procurement process.

“I know the TTC is working hard on this to get it back on track and that it does come into service as soon as possible,” said the minister.

The massive cost overrun could be a further source of tension between Premier Kathleen Wynne and Toronto Mayor John Tory.

Wynne, who is saddled with a $12.5-billion deficit and has already refused Tory’s request of an $86-million budget bailout, has promised $15 billion for transit in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area over the next decade. [...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2015/03/06/spadina-subway-extension-400m-over-budget.html

Note: "unlike the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, Spadina is not a private-public partnership using the province’s Infrastructure Ontario procurement process."

Get used to the terms "Infrastructure" "private-public" and "funding", arriving at the election platform shortly. Have your ticket ready...