Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[ssiguy2]

Eventually RH will become RER so I simply suggest making it the DRL as well. Faster and vastly cheaper to expand, makes a continuous RER route from RH to Burlington, is more politically palatable, and very importantly offers relief to a soon-to-be overburdened Union station. Toronto has got to plan on having 15,000 GO trains every week and Union simply doesn't have the capacity and one small accident {the chances of which rise every time they increase frequency} would bring the entire system to a screeching halt. Putting all your eggs in one basket a la Union is asking for trouble. If a DRL is built using standard third rail, a relief RER line will still have to be built.

 

[Rainforest]

If a DRL is built using standard third rail, a relief RER line will still have to be built.

Ideally, I would build both at once: a tunnel under Queen with 4 tracks, two of them for mainline trains and two for third-rail subway trains. That should be much cheaper than building two separate tunnels, one in the near future and another one 15 or 20 years later.

Of course, that would require a larger up-front investment than a standard two-track tunnel, and thus will be a hard sell.

 

[Euphoria]

Okay, if we really want to get the best bang for our buck in the first phase of the DRL and get the line in place as soon as possible (emphasizing that this is only the first stage), here's what I think should happen. There are savings and synergies involved in combining the DRL with RER and using the RER ROW, just as there are for integrating rail with future highway construction, especially where tunneling and tolls come into play, but no matter what, a subway or mid-gauge rail line is required along Queen (or just south of it) from east of the Don (Unilever) to Dufferin and Queen (Liberty Village). If ST has the same fare structure as the TTC, it would be fine in the first phase to end the DRL at Unilever, as it will be an easy transfer to ST, which will have stations at Gerard and Bloor-Danforth. Similarly in the west, end the DRL at Dufferin, as commuters can transfer to or from the DRL to the Liberty Village ST, which will intersect the B-D line at Dundas West. This is the most cost effective first phase with connections in the west and the east. I think everyone would agree that this route for the DRL is essential, whatever is decided for extensions in the future. Once this phase of the DRL and ST are complete, the city will be able to assess ridership flows and select the best route extensions.

 

[Tuck]

If ST has the same fare structure as the TTC, it would be fine in the first phase to end the DRL at Unilever, as it will be an easy transfer to ST, which will have stations at Gerard and Bloor-Danforth. Similarly in the west, end the DRL at Dufferin, as commuters can transfer to or from the DRL to the Liberty Village ST, which will intersect the B-D line at Dundas West. This is the most cost effective first phase with connections in the west and the east.

I may be misunderstanding you, but this sounds like a very bad idea - its basically a stub line of no use to the vast majority of Torontonians. How is it supposed to relieve Yonge and Bloor? Plus, to get from the BRL to BD, you'd have to transfer twice, instead of once.

The best route for the DRL is as currently proposed, Queen to Pape. I highly doubt we'll have to wait 17 years to get the line extended up - West will be trickier, but extending it north is extending it into the suburbs, which should prove popular. Its really just this first phase that is so hard because its primarily downtown (and expensive, yeah). Sort of like how they're looking to extend the Crosstown, even though its not done yet.

 

[Euphoria]

On another note, it's absurd that a city the size of Toronto has only one major train station. Of course Union is overcrowded. I was disappointed to hear that the proposed Spadina rail station will only service one GO line. I hope that in the future this will in corporate ST, additional GO lines, and ideally subway, even if it means that some of these connections occur at Bathurst, a good possibility given the length of heavy rail stations. No doubt this could take a while, especially if incorporated with the Rail Deck Park.

 

[Euphoria]

I may be misunderstanding you, but this sounds like a very bad idea - its basically a stub line of no use to the vast majority of Torontonians. How is it supposed to relieve Yonge and Bloor? Plus, to get from the BRL to BD, you'd have to transfer twice, instead of once.

The best route for the DRL is as currently proposed, Queen to Pape. I highly doubt we'll have to wait 17 years to get the line extended up - West will be trickier, but extending it north is extending it into the suburbs, which should prove popular. Its really just this first phase that is so hard because its primarily downtown (and expensive, yeah). Sort of like how they're looking to extend the Crosstown, even though its not done yet.

Then run the DRL from Pape to Dufferin in the first phase. It just seems like line duplication in the east to have ST and the DRL servicing two major stations plus Bloor-Danforth. Again, I'm just talking about where the first stations should be constructed to provide the widest reach. I do agree with others on here who have said that north of Eglinton, we really should be looking at ST and/or GO RER to provide connections to the suburbs. At a certain point there are just too many subway stations on a line to make a reasonable commute time, not to mention the potential overcrowding on subway lines. Line one is already reaching into the burbs. I'm sure B-D, after the Scarborough extension, will eventually make it to Sherway or somewhere out there.

 

[Tuck]

Then run the DRL from Pape to Dufferin in the first phase. It just seems like line duplication in the east to have ST and the DRL servicing two major stations plus Bloor-Danforth. Again, I'm just talking about where the first stations should be constructed to provide the widest reach. I do agree with others on here who have said that north of Eglinton, we really should be looking at ST and/or GO RER to provide connections to the suburbs. At a certain point there are just too many subway stations on a line to make a reasonable commute time, not to mention the potential overcrowding on subway lines. Line one is already reaching into the burbs. I'm sure B-D, after the Scarborough extension, will eventually make it to Sherway or somewhere out there.

Well I agree with you on that much at least - its not cost effective to keep extending the subway system further and further into the suburbs when RER can do the same job, at grade, for cheaper (and with hopefully faster commute times due to fewer stops).

 

[ssiguy2]

* Or how electrification would have been underway if Metrolinx put more money and time into it as opposed to new parking garages.

 

[TransitBart]

I sometimes wonder what system we might be able to have today if the money spent on things like the Sheppard Subway and TYSSE was just spent on upgrading GO.

They are completely different and complementary things, so although @Euphoria has an opinion, I don't think that the THIS or THAT view holds much water. Living in Toronto, I could not give a hoot (in theory about GO), taking the TTC and subway frequently. But since my brother lives in Ajax, he is totally concerned about GO and rarely uses Toronto's subway.

What the system would look like is great for the 905 and grid-locked and headed rapidly downhill in Toronto. A situation we may still not avoid unless we get cracking building heavy-rail backbone rapid transit.

Looking around North America there are two cities that look like Toronto. Chicago and New York. Neither is having dreamy debates about buses, BRT and LRT lines. All those things might complement a heavy-rail backbone system, but none will replace it if we're serious about reducing car trips or moving people on a large scale.

 

[MisterF]

They are completely different and complementary things, so although @Euphoria has an opinion, I don't think that the THIS or THAT view holds much water. Living in Toronto, I could not give a hoot (in theory about GO), taking the TTC and subway frequently. But since my brother lives in Ajax, he is totally concerned about GO and rarely uses Toronto's subway.

And that's precisely the problem with the way that transit is set up in the GTA. The trains that run in rail corridors should be every bit as relevant to Torontonians as the trains that run underground. To someone living near Danforth Station for example, GO should be just as natural a choice to get downtown as the subway. But because GO is (for now) little more than a rush hour shuttle from the suburbs and the TTC insists on a 1960s flat fare system, the vast majority take the slower trains. This is why fare integration is such an important part of RER.

 

[muller877]

* Or how electrification would have been underway if Metrolinx put more money and time into it as opposed to new parking garages.

So we would have electric trains without anyone to fill the seats? Parking, local transit and other local access to stations have to be considered along side electrification to make sure all the pieces fit together.

 

[smallspy]

To someone living near Danforth Station for example, GO should be just as natural a choice to get downtown as the subway.

For one, I think that you underestimate just how many people do in fact use GO to get to where they are going inside the City of Toronto. The failure of the repeated attempts of joint GO-TTC passes notwithstanding, the number is not inconsequential. The ridership of stations such as Danforth, Mimico and Eglinton bears that out.

And as a second, and as a tie-in with the first, the bigger concern is where the stations are located and their accesses. The walkable catchment of many of the GO stations is not particularly good, meaning that people need to arrive at the station by some other mode. 2 different fares are thus required. Once most people put their fare into one vehicle, they aren't likely to be thinking of putting in a second fare, especially since that first vehicle will take them to a subway where they can transfer for free.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[gweed123]

* Or how electrification would have been underway if Metrolinx put more money and time into it as opposed to new parking garages.

I see this argument presented time and time again and it always bugs me. "Apple should spend less time on watch bands and more on laptops", etc. Yes, because it's clearly the same people working on both things. The people doing architectural designs for parking garages aren't the same people doing substation designs for rail electrification. Cutting back on one would do no good for the other. In fact, most of those design jobs are contracted out to consultants, so it's not even Metrolinx staff working on them, so there are no resources to shift other than money. There's an old saying that I think is apt here: "Just because one woman can make a baby in 9 months doesn't mean 9 women can make a baby in one month."

Yes, adding resources may very well speed up the process slightly. Have you checked Metrolinx' job board lately? Every time I look there's at least 1 or 2 postings for RER-related work.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I see this argument presented time and time again and it always bugs me. "Apple should spend less time on watch bands and more on laptops", etc. Yes, because it's clearly the same people working on both things. The people doing architectural designs for parking garages aren't the same people doing substation designs for rail electrification. Cutting back on one would do no good for the other. In fact, most of those design jobs are contracted out to consultants, so it's not even Metrolinx staff working on them, so there are no resources to shift other than money. There's an old saying that I think is apt here: "Just because one woman can make a baby in 9 months doesn't mean 9 women can make a baby in one month."

Yes, adding resources may very well speed up the process slightly. Have you checked Metrolinx' job board lately? Every time I look there's at least 1 or 2 postings for RER-related work.

Wouldn't dedicating more money to the electrification process speed it up?

 

[gweed123]

Wouldn't dedicating more money to the electrification process speed it up?

Marginally. Where it would help best would be expanding the contract for implementation (multiple lines being done simultaneously instead of in sequence). A two-fold increase in planning and design money isn't likely to result in a halving of that portion's timeline though.