Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[Filip]

The Relief Line to Sheppard is a North York and Scarborough subway. Historical precedent says that North York and Scarborough gets subways.

Great. But the rest of the city will not accept spending $8 billion in one quadrant while the rest gets to enjoy rotting infrastructure.

This isn't a short subway extension or a spur line (a la Sheppard) but a massive line with a massive cost. There is no precedent unless you're going back to the days of Bloor Danforth, where the line was built and extended both east and west for political purposes.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Great. But the rest of the city will not accept spending $8 billion in one quadrant while the rest gets to enjoy rotting infrastructure.

This isn't a short subway extension or a spur line (a la Sheppard) but a massive line with a massive cost. There is no precedent unless you're going back to the days of Bloor Danforth, where the line was built and extended both east and west for political purposes.

Without this infrastructure, nobody in the rest of the city will be able to use the Yonge Subway to get downtown because it's so over capacity.

 

[minilude]

Basically a lot of people in York Region and eastern Toronto use the Sheppard Line to connect to the Yonge Line to then get downtown. This contributes significantly to Yonge Line crowding. The Relief Line would be about 50% faster for downtown bound trips from Don Mills Station than travelling via Sheppard Line and Line 1, so a lot of these commuters would use the Relief Line rater than the Sheppard and Yonge Lines.

yes it's nice to have but these york regionites will appear at Sheppard/Yonge first before they head downtown, won't they? From my observation the Sheppard/Yonge is not at the extent that needs diversion..so I don't believe our squeeze-the-last-penny government will give a crap at diverting this station...

but given the entire project is at the same price tag as the Smart Track it's no brainer to choose the DRL Long

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The line doesn't serve demand on Sheppard, but rather it serves demand from bus routes that intersect the line. Remember, almost all subway demand outside of the downtown core comes from bus-to-subway transfers. Whether or not there is demand on Sheppard isn't particularly relevant. This is how the Relief Line Long, with somewhere upwards of 40 surface connections, can have nearly twice the peak hour ridership as the Relief Line U (to Dundas West), which travels through some of the densest areas in Toronto.

If you want to visualize this, I recommend heading to York Mills Station at rush hour. That station is in an area of relatively low density, yet the subway platform fills in minutes thanks to all the busses connecting.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Without this infrastructure, nobody in the rest of the city will be able to use the Yonge Subway to get downtown because it's so over capacity.

I don't see why a western extension cannot occur before an extension to Sheppard - the immediate need to provide relief to Yonge will be served simply by having the line built - I don't see the need to that northward occur right away, and if having a western extension (which will be well used) helps to shore up political support, it would be a deal well worth it.

The best scenario would be making a case for extensions to occur at the same time.

AoD

 

[Filip]

Without this infrastructure, nobody in the rest of the city will be able to use the Yonge Subway to get downtown because it's so over capacity.

Most people in the catchment of DRL W would seldom take the Yonge line, and selfishly, I don't care.

You see when every 501 streetcar down Lake Shore is crowded before your stop in rush hour (sometimes preventing you from getting on) crowded subways on Yonge don't unnerve me much.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

yes it's nice to have but these york regionites will appear at Sheppard/Yonge first before they head downtown, won't they? From my observation the Sheppard/Yonge is not at the extent that needs diversion..so I don't believe our squeeze-the-last-penny government will give a crap at diverting this station...

but given the entire project is at the same price tag as the Smart Track it's no brainer to choose the DRL Long

It's not just Sheppard, but it's also Finch, Steeles, York Mills, Lawrence and York Region. All those busses quickly add up.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

No, the immediate need to provide Yonge relief will not be served by having the Relief Line Short built. I direct you to SmartTrack, Relief Line and Yonge Subway Extension Ridership Forecasts, Summary Report, which shows that at 2031, with the Relief Line Short, Yonge Line will be at 100% capacity (36,000 pphpd). We need additional infrastructure to divert persons coming from the east away from the Yonge Line, or Yonge will be remain at/over capacity.

2031 is years from now, and if you can't even get the small J built because you lack allies on council, you might as well forget about the big J. That is what I meant by winning the battle and losing the war.

And once you have the small J, do you think anyone will be able resist and leave it alone when the capacity issue comes to shove again? Nope, you bet they will be demanding that line be extended. Let the next generation of politicians busy themselves with that.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't see why a western extension cannot occur before an extension to Sheppard - the immediate need to provide relief to Yonge will be served simply by having the line built - I don't see the need to that northward occur right away, and if having a western extension (which will be well used) helps to shore up political support, it would be a deal well worth it.

The best scenario would be making a case for extensions to occur at the same time.

AoD

No, the immediate need to provide Yonge relief will not be served by having the Relief Line Short built. I direct you to SmartTrack, Relief Line and Yonge Subway Extension Ridership Forecasts, Summary Report, which shows that at 2031, with the Relief Line Short and without Yonge North Extension, the Yonge Line will be at 100% capacity (36,000 pphpd). We need additional infrastructure to divert persons coming from the east away from the Yonge Line, or Yonge will be remain at/over capacity.

The sad truth is that the Relief Line Short does relatively little to relieve Yonge Line crowding, diverging only 10% of riders away from the line. It's primary benefit is Bloor-Yonge Station relief. This shouldn't be a surprise, since the RLS doesn't divert too many Yonge-bound surface connections.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

2031 is years from now, and if you can't even get the small J built because you lack allies on council, you might as well forget about the big J. That is what I meant by winning the battle and losing the war.

And once you have the small J, do you think anyone will be able to not do anything and leave it alone when the capacity issue comes to shove again? Nope, you bet they will be demanding that line be extended. Let the next generation of politicians busy themselves with that.

AoD

Sorry, I reposted the comment you replied to below (accidentally deleted it)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The sad truth is that the Relief Line Short does relatively little to relieve Yonge Line crowding, diverging only 10% of riders away from the line. It's primary benefit is Bloor-Yonge Station relief. This shouldn't be a surprise, since the RLS doesn't divert too many Yonge-bound surface connections.

I don't care whether it does little or a lot - what I care about is moving on the file and let politics sort itself out when it is time to extend what's built. Keyword - what's built. You have to get there first.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

2031 is years from now, and if you can't even get the small J built because you lack allies on council, you might as well forget about the big J. That is what I meant by winning the battle and losing the war.

And once you have the small J, do you think anyone will be able to not do anything and leave it alone when the capacity issue comes to shove?

Yeah, 2031 is years from now. But the best case scenario is that the RLS, which begun work 3 years ago, opens in 2028. If work on the RLL begun now, it wouldn't open until at or after 2031. Work on the RLL needs to begin now if we're to have it done in time to deal with Yonge's capacity crisis that will (re)materialize 15 years from now (2031).

Work on Relief Line U can also begin now, but the Relief Line Long cannot be delayed any further if we're to adequately deal with 2031 Yonge capacity issues. That's exactly why RLL is City Planning's top priority.

If we're okay with Yonge being over capacity (which is a perfectly fine conclusion, I suppose) then there's no problem with delaying the RLL. We'll just have to deal with the consequences. But if our goal is truly to have the Yonge Line below capacity, we need to move forward on RLL immediately.

 

[Filip]

Yeah, 2031 is years from now. But the best case scenario is that the RLS, which begin work 3 years ago, opens in 2028. If work on the RLL begun now, it wouldn't open until at or after 2031. Work on the RLL needs to begin now if we're to have it done in time to deal with Yonge's capacity crisis that will (re)materialize 15 years from now (2031).

Work on Relief Line U can also begin now, but the Relief Line Long cannot be delayed any further if we're to adequately deal with 2031 Yonge capacity issues. That's exactly why RLL is City Planning's top priority.

If we're okay with Yonge being over capacity (which is a perfectly fine conclusion, I suppose) then there's no problem with delaying the RLL. We'll just have to deal with the consequences.

And why wouldn't we be fine with an over capacity Yonge line?

The entire downtown streetcar network would qualify as over capacity (lack of vehicles, lack of space, traffic, etc) yet I don't see any calls to arms to fix the problem, one that would be easily fixed by extending the DRL to Roncesvalles as Phase I.

 

[minilude]

It's not just Sheppard, but it's also Finch, Steeles, York Mills, Lawrence and York Region. All those busses quickly add up.

if money is not an issue, the support of DRL going to Sheppard even Markham is no brainer as I said..we are discussing if the money is limited..which scenario to choose to give the best relief to Yonge

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And why wouldn't we be fine with an over capacity Yonge line?

The entire downtown streetcar network would qualify as over capacity (lack of vehicles, lack of space, traffic, etc) yet I don't see any calls to arms to fix the problem, one that would be easily fixed by extending the DRL to Roncesvalles as Phase I.

Because the Yonge Line capacity issue affects several times more people than streetcar capacity issues, and is of significantly greater regional importance (YNSE is being held up because of this).


Keep in mind too that City Planning is addressing the streetcar network capacity issues as well, through the purchase of our fleet of LFLRVs and the King Street transit mall. The transit mall will add significantly more capacity and dramatically improve travel times on the downtown streetcar network, until we can complete the RLU. This can be implemented next year, which will help you out a lot.