Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

The "Big J" serves areas that are nowhere near a rapid transit line and that RER wouldn't be able to service either.

The routes would be identical from downtown to Lawrence. It's only north of Lawrence where they would diverge. Realistically, the Big J would only feature 1 more station than the RER from there to Sheppard, and that would be at Graydon Hall. A small bus trip to reach it, but worth it to save probably at least a billion dollars. Also, Don Mills & York Mills isn't a great place for a station, since 3 of the 4 corners are park land. At least at York Mills and the rail corridor, you have some stuff around it. That station could also be a surface station, lowering costs dramatically.

I get the price tag but this line with its current analysis is needed. Also what's stopping YRT from redirecting some of their bus routes to Don Mills and Sheppard?

Because most people are going towards RHC to then go southbound, not Don Mills.

Furthermore, you have the best political climate to make it happen for at least a generation:

-City Hall will get behind it instead of burying it or ignoring it like past administrations
-The province campaigned on it, promised it and added directives in their budget for it
-Metrolinx identified it as a necessity and even pushed it father north than we all anticipated while the common ground was Eglinton-Don Mills
-The federal government is now ready to not only spend massively in public transit but willing to pay more than the traditional 1/3 of the bill.

If anything, we should expedite the EA so it's shovel ready ASAP. Now's not the time to cheap out on it. We know it's needed, let's do it right

It's not really cheapening out if the alternative is a better plan in addition to being more cost effective. Building the YSE just puts the Yonge line right back up to that near/over capacity mark. If there's a plan that can avoid that scenario, and still has all the benefits that the Big J provides (minus one station, maybe), why not at least study it?
 
After reading Steve's article, it only further confirms to me that the best way to relieve the Yonge line is to plug the DRL into the RER network and have its northeastern branch connect with RER along the Richmond Hill GO line.

The numbers basically say "building the Little J and 5-min SmartTrack will alleviate the pressure, but adding the YSE will pretty much bring the crowding situation back to where it is now". The solution, in my mind, is to get those riders who would be using the YSE off of the Yonge line completely, and service their trip with a parallel line.

The Big J (RL to Sheppard) is a monumental price tag, and still doesn't solve anything north of it. With the RL + RH RER, you'd only have to tunnel to Lawrence (4km less), and from there electrifying and double tracking the RH corridor is about the same cost as the YSE. Whether it's 6 car RER vehicles or 6 car TRs, the capacity is going to be very similar. Going with RER allows for the branches to operate on GO tracks, whereas TRs need TTC tracks for the entire thing.

The fact that this option isn't even being evaluated quite frankly boggles my mind.

They studied an RER + option with 4 min headways on the Richmond Hill corridor. It was eliminated because it didnt provide sufficient relief.

It might provide more relief if more stations were added, but ML wouldn't like this as it would significantly increase trip times for people coming from the 905. This is the same reason why they don't want to add most of the proposed SmartTrack stops

There's also something to be said about the Richmond Hill corridor not being well positioned for urban development. We'd be repeating the same mistakes we made with the Spadina Line, except it would be more exaggerated on RH
 
They studied an RER + option with 4 min headways on the Richmond Hill corridor. It was eliminated because it didnt provide sufficient relief.

It might provide more relief if more stations were added, but ML wouldn't like this as it would significantly increase trip times for people coming from the 905. This is the same reason why they don't want to add most of the proposed SmartTrack stops

There's also something to be said about the Richmond Hill corridor not being well positioned for urban development. We'd be repeating the same mistakes we made with the Spadina Line, except it would be more exaggerated on RH

Between Eglinton and the waterfront on the RH alignment, if you're not in a floodplain, you're in the bottom of the ravine. If the Don Branch is used, you're 50m over the ravine and DVP or beside a hydro ROW. Compare this with a Pape-Thorncliffe Park-Don Mills alignment and the choice for ridership and station area coverage is clear.
 
They studied an RER + option with 4 min headways on the Richmond Hill corridor. It was eliminated because it didnt provide sufficient relief.

It might provide more relief if more stations were added, but ML wouldn't like this as it would significantly increase trip times for people coming from the 905. This is the same reason why they don't want to add most of the proposed SmartTrack stops

There's also something to be said about the Richmond Hill corridor not being well positioned for urban development. We'd be repeating the same mistakes we made with the Spadina Line, except it would be more exaggerated on RH

As dunkalunk mentioned, the RH corridor they studied was the entire corridor, which below Lawrence is useless. What I'm proposing is using the DRL alignment south of Lawrence, so any catchment arguments that hold true for the DRL also hold true for this RER setup.

And the RH corridor is pretty well suited for nodal development though, particularly if a station is implemented between Old Cummer and RHC, at John. Any Yonge intensification between Finch and RHC can be handled by a Rapidway on that corridor.
 
After reading Steve's article, it only further confirms to me that the best way to relieve the Yonge line is to plug the DRL into the RER network and have its northeastern branch connect with RER along the Richmond Hill GO line.

The case for changing the routing of the RH GO line is the comparative cost of flood relief in the lower Don, versus the cost of rerouting down the Leaside spur. And add the money saved by avoiding any further 404 expansion. Better to leave that as a standalone proposition. I wonder if there is a clever way to make the two connect up around Oriole.

There's also something to be said about the Richmond Hill corridor not being well positioned for urban development. We'd be repeating the same mistakes we made with the Spadina Line, except it would be more exaggerated on RH

There's much more hope of forcing development that will create counter-flow on Yonge than on the RH route. That would make the Yonge extension a little more palatable. I'd buy the DRL/GO idea if it could actually prevent the Yonge extension, but that ship is slowly but steadily casting off.

- Paul
 
I'm heading over to the public meeting tonight. If anyone has some good questions that I should ask the staff, let me know and I will report back.
 
From the Toronto Sun, at this link:

Queen subway? That’s the ticket!
It’s the best route available for Toronto’s desperately needed downtown relief line

1297780302861_AUTHOR_PHOTO.jpg

By Gordon Chong

The stars are finally aligning for public transit!

Toronto Chief Planner Jennifer Keesmaat recently unveiled a visionary transit plan for the next 15 years.

It placed the downtown relief line near the top of the city’s priorities, with the downtown portion running along Queen St., as the TTC first proposed in the 1960s.

At that time, a “streetcar elimination program” was also on the table.

However, a well-organized Toronto-centric group known as “Streetcars for Toronto” managed to kill the idea, thereby condemning Torontonians to decades of mobility challenges and downtown traffic chaos.


On another front, the Toronto Sun’s Lorrie Goldstein recently returned from a trip to Hong Kong (where it doesn’t snow) praising its highly successful, underground subway system.

As Goldstein pointed out, Hong Kong, “wisely decided decades ago that underground subways were the most efficient method of moving people.”

Its Mass Transit Railway Corp. (MTR) is one of the most efficient in the world and was up and running — with an electronic fare card — when I first visited Hong Kong in 1981, 35 years ago!

The MTR’s modern-day Octopus card, in which commuters pay for distance travelled by swiping at terminals before entering and exiting the subway system, along with the Oyster card in London, England, are the templates for our own Presto card, which is only now being rolled out.

The Octopus card’s Chinese name means “extends in all directions,” like an octopus’ tentacles, which indeed it does in Hong Kong’s MTR.

While Hong Kong’s entrepreneurial MTR operation is impressive, it cannot be totally replicated here.

Among other issues, the MTR has faced controversies in recent years for failing to disclose key information to investors in a timely fashion.

Plus, our lengthy planning and approval process would pose obstacles.

However, the basic concepts used in Hong Kong can be modified and adapted to Toronto, if the political will is there and the process transparent.

Regarding Keesmaat’s Queen subway revival proposal, several features should be noted.

The Queen route is equidistantly located between the Bloor-Danforth subway line and the waterfront.

It would decongest current commuter flow patterns and reduce the concentration of development in the financial district downtown, to locations further north.

A Queen line would also better serve the retail sector, University Avenue’s office complexes and the four major hospitals on University north of Queen, along with the Toronto Western Hospital, which is just up the road at Dundas St.

Extending both east and west, it would take pressure off the congested Yonge-University-Spadina and Bloor-Danforth lines.

Finally, Queen St. is already a heavily used transit corridor and the creative design possibilities with a Queen subway line should be of interest to Mayor John Tory and council.

Queen St. between Bay St. and York St. could be closed, and the existing Nathan Phillips Square extended to encompass Queen, creating a large, friendly, attractive urban meeting place.

The Queen stations between Yonge and University could be connected by an underground tunnel and mall with an iconic pavilion in front of City Hall.

This would create an engaging, people-friendly space above and below ground, similar to the transit pavilion at the new World Trade Center in New York.

Any expansion projects, however, should not be undertaken by the TTC. It has its hands full with existing operations and should be solely focused on that.

When the east Sheppard subway extension was being assessed a few years ago, there was a parallel discussion about the possibility of Toronto establishing an Infrastructure Toronto modeled on Infrastructure Ontario to take on capital projects. That needs further study.

But the convergence of Tory’s determination on the transit file, Keesmaat’s visionary plan, and media reports reminding Torontonians their public transit system is 40 years behind the times compared to other cities, are all factors that could finally address our yearning for sensible, long-term public transit planning and construction.
Mr. Chong still considers streetcars as the cause of traffic congestion in Toronto. When the real culprit is the single-occupant automobile who parks/stands/stops on any street (with or without streetcars) for the all important Caffè latte and everything bagel.

Back to the full story, at least he is showing that a subway (heavy rail or light rail or transporters) along Queen Street should be considered as the route for the DRL. Don't expect streetcars to disappear, however.
 
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Someone should remind Gordon Chong that besides being an incredibly dense urban centre of over 7 million people, Hong Kong is also adjacent to the massive Pearl River Delta Mega City. We're talking 50 million+ people crammed into an area the size of the Greater Toronto Area. Of course subways work best.
 
https://twitter.com/hilaryholden/status/705785232222523394
Steve Munro: And how there is no ref to benefit of the "Big J" with RL going further north. Misrepresents RL benefits.
Hilary Holden: bear with us, #TransitTO is modelling network permutations to add to the results released to date
Oliver Moore: Any chance it'll be before council is expected to make a decision?
Hilary Holden: of course: it will be part of the report to Executive in June plus possibly also released in advance.

So City Planning are working on projections for the Relief Line "Big J" option, whether that means to Eglinton or to Sheppard.
 
Mr. Chong still considers streetcars as the cause of traffic congestion in Toronto. When the real culprit is the single-occupant automobile who parks/stands/stops on any street (with or without streetcars) for the all important Caffè latte and everything bagel.

Back to the full story, at least he is showing that a subway (heavy rail or light rail or transporters) along Queen Street should be considered as the route for the DRL. Don't expect streetcars to disappear, however.
Steve Munro has gone on the offense regarding that Chong article.
https://twitter.com/SwanBoatSteve/status/706581035467853827

I think Munro is spot on, in every point.
 
Someone should remind Gordon Chong that besides being an incredibly dense urban centre of over 7 million people, Hong Kong is also adjacent to the massive Pearl River Delta Mega City. We're talking 50 million+ people crammed into an area the size of the Greater Toronto Area. Of course subways work best.
I read that route is Queen/Richmond. Does that mean it really has no been decided if one street or the other?
 
Steve Munro has gone on the offense regarding that Chong article.
https://twitter.com/SwanBoatSteve/status/706581035467853827

I think Munro is spot on, in every point.
This point is my favourite:
For the record I have supported a relief line to Don Mills from downtown for a very long time, not that Chong would have noticed.
So the same guy who was a consultant on Transit City and had no issues with TC not having a DRL now says he has been Relief Line fan #1 for, what, decades? Yeah, I can't believe Gordon Chong or anyone else didn't notice that.
 

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