Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Its probably going to have to be deep bored through the core anyway, has to get under the Yonge line regardless.

The only conflict points will probably be parking garages and station structures, which is going to be roughly equal on both Queen and King.
 
If the map is accurate, then Adelaide has the fewest PATH crossings at 2.
According to the map, Queen and Richmond also have 2 crossings. However, the crossing from The Bay to the Eaton Centre is actually via Queen Station, so it's not really separate from the subway station.
 
King would be a lousy choice. PATH is to elaborate so it would be a technical nightmare, cost a king's ransom, and the tunnels would be 10 feet short of China to make it all possible. Also King will already have ST /RER/GO so it already has the best transit connections in the city.

Queen is the natural alternative not only because it would more new riders but Queen is a more important commercial and pedestrian strip than King. Also Queen would be the easiest to build under. The biggest problem when building underground is interchange stations with other subway lines and Queen will be as easy as it gets as opposed to any other downtown street. The Queen underground station is there and yes it would have to be completely redesigned and expanded but it is still there. It would get rid of the most of the tunnelling under Yonge station.

Due to Queen station, Osgood was also designed with a Queen subway in mind. The assumption was made that it would be the crosstown route and hence Osgood station has all clearances for plumbing, sewer, electrical etc for the eventuality of a station and this is a bonus that other stations don't have. Queen's PATH system is relatively small and I think there should be subway access to City Hall.

To me Queen is not only the superior choice but also the easiest, less disruptive, and cheapest to boot.
 
The western side of the Yonge-University subway line, south of Eglinton West, follows the Nordheimer Ravine and therefore curves southeast, but I don't see why the new DRL line can't run directly south from Eglinton West (ideally incorporating a continuation of the Allen Expressway underground within the same tunnel). If what we're seeking is a parallel north-south subway line west of the Yonge-University-Spadina Line, it will need to be tunneled. As mentioned in previous posts, it's much easier to tunnel under parkland and streets. This route for a DRL would tunnel under existing roads, such as Winnett and Arlington, and under parks that follow the alignment of buried Taddle Creek: Hillcrest Park, Christie Pits, and Trinity Bellwoods. That means you get stations at St. Clair and Arlington, Christie Station (overlap with the existing Bloor-Danforth station), Grace and College (or thereabouts), Dundas and Grace, and Gore Vale and Queen (Trinity Bellwoods). There are streetcar stops at each of these points where the DRL would intersect with east-west streetcar lines. The expressway entrances and exits could be very discrete. Simply have single-lane ramps funnel onto the right-hand lanes of existing streets. In terms of where the expressway/subway would go south of Queen, I would continue it eastbound and have it divide into two branches at Bathurst, so that eastbound expressway exits into downtown spill out onto Adelaide just east of Bathurst and on Adelaide just east of Spadina (and one or two more east of Yonge?). The westbound entry points onto the expressway would be just east of Bathurst on Richmond and just east of Spadina on Richmond (and east of Yonge). An expressway exit to the Gardner could travel south, maybe to a Front St. extension where it would travel westward. At the east end, the expressway would connect with the DVP at the existing Richmond interchange, making the elevated Gardiner redundant. I'm sure there are many ideas for where to locate the subway station stops in the core. I realize this is big, but again, if the tolls are pricey (on the Allen Expressway branch, not necessarily on the buried Gardiner portion) and you amortize this bad boy over a long enough period, you've basically covered the subway tunneling capital costs for the western half of your Downtown Relief Line. I think it's critical that we open up more of our best neighbourhoods to tourists and Torontonians. Areas like Corso Italia, Little Italy, Trinity Bellwoods (and by association West Queen West) should be very accessible. That's also why I'd suggest putting a SmartTrac station in the Distillery District. The track is already there. This isn't the 19th century. It's silly to expect tourists to hike everywhere with backpacks or get on clunky streetcars to get to attractions. I don't think we should see SmartTrac and DRL as either/or situations. They shouldn't compete with each other, as having both will provide better transit coverage across the city. SmartTrac is substantially cheaper, easier to build, and fully funded. I also don't think we should remove the Queen and King streetcar lines. They provide added transit options and streetcars along these streets are synonymous with the character of Toronto. I can't imagine Toronto without the Queen car, or the King car for that matter, especially in the St. Lawrence area by the gas lights. I realize subway tunneling will have to be funded for the eastern portion of the DRL. I also realize that some would like the western side of the DRL to branch north further west, but there's no reason why the portion of the line running east-west couldn't be extended over time and north-south extensions/spurs added as funding allows. You can call this type of plan too big, but really it's cost effective and allows us to meet a multitude of long-term goals incrementally. We can leave the elevated Gardiner in place until it's done. SmartTrac and existing infrastructure are left largely intact. We have a funding tool (road tolls) for some of the DRL construction.

Oh, and don't worry too much about the PATH or other obstacles. The London Underground has proven that if you dig deep enough, there's always an unobstructed route. There would likely only be a few stretches where trains would have to descend more than a few stories. We're not tunneling under skyscrapers.
 
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King would be a lousy choice. PATH is to elaborate so it would be a technical nightmare, cost a king's ransom, and the tunnels would be 10 feet short of China to make it all possible. Also King will already have ST /RER/GO so it already has the best transit connections in the city.

Queen is the natural alternative not only because it would more new riders but Queen is a more important commercial and pedestrian strip than King. Also Queen would be the easiest to build under. The biggest problem when building underground is interchange stations with other subway lines and Queen will be as easy as it gets as opposed to any other downtown street. The Queen underground station is there and yes it would have to be completely redesigned and expanded but it is still there. It would get rid of the most of the tunnelling under Yonge station.

Due to Queen station, Osgood was also designed with a Queen subway in mind. The assumption was made that it would be the crosstown route and hence Osgood station has all clearances for plumbing, sewer, electrical etc for the eventuality of a station and this is a bonus that other stations don't have. Queen's PATH system is relatively small and I think there should be subway access to City Hall.

To me Queen is not only the superior choice but also the easiest, less disruptive, and cheapest to boot.
Fine assessment.

I always thought people underscored the ability of CBD office workers to walk a short distance to their office via the PATH from Queen. They are already very familiar with the PATH system. Putting it at Queen will make people more willing to transfer at Pape than continue to Yonge if their destination is the commercial uses at Queen or if their destination is at Dundas, while not at all harming King street-bound ridership.

And concerning future expansion to the west, if the King streetcar is to become a pedestrianized street mall with its own streetcar ROW, then it makes Queen the natural alignment for an underground subway.
 
@Euphoria

The downtown highway ship has sailed. You're proposing tolls. Even less sellable. Torontonians can't be bothered to pay tolls for existing infrastructure. Let alone a new tunnel. Won't happen.

Best to focus on building the DRL as effectively and cheaply as possible.
 
I would think any DRL has to take into account future growth as well. No point relieving Yonge/Bloor, only to jam up Union or still have King clogged up. New neighbourhoods will have to be serviced. I don't know what that means for the best alignment. But I would caution about assuming that Queen or King are just natural choices.
 
Fine assessment.

I always thought people underscored the ability of CBD office workers to walk a short distance to their office via the PATH from Queen. They are already very familiar with the PATH system.

And concerning future expansion to the west, if the King streetcar is to become a pedestrianized street mall with its own streetcar ROW, then it makes Queen the natural alignment for an underground subway.

There is also the issue of future urban development patterns - maybe northward extension of the CBD?

The relief line isn't just about relieving Yonge - it is also about relieving the existing network of streetcar lines. Subways are particularly useful in a dense downtown setting when there are relatively frequent stations serving key nodes.

AoD
 
An elevated expressway in a city like Paris or London would be unthinkable. If we're going to tunnel through the city anyway for DRL, let's have provision for a buried Gardiner. Whether or not to put tolls on it is up for debate. The reason why Toronto is such a poorly planned city is because of the kind of planning in isolation you think should continue. All aspects should be taken into account: development over train tracks and land made available through the removal of the Gardiner, options for bike lanes along a revamped Lakeshore Rd. and other roads, tying in transfers between DRL and Yonge-U Line with the PATH system, etc. I can tell the bloggers who've looked at multiple considerations from the ones who haven't. You'll get out of this exercise what you put into it. Don't think for a second that the Gardiner Hybrid is anything other than a temporary solution. Also, stop proposing adding DRL stops in low ridership locales just because you happen to live in them.
 
An elevated expressway in a city like Paris or London would be unthinkable. If we're going to tunnel through the city anyway for DRL, let's have provision for a buried Gardiner. Whether or not to put tolls on it is up for debate. The reason why Toronto is such a poorly planned city is because of the kind of planning in isolation you think should continue. All aspects should be taken into account: development over train tracks and land made available through the removal of the Gardiner, options for bike lanes along a revamped Lakeshore Rd. and other roads, tying in transfers between DRL and Yonge-U Line with the PATH system, etc. I can tell the bloggers who've looked at multiple considerations from the ones who haven't. You'll get out of this exercise what you put into it. Don't think for a second that the Gardiner Hybrid is anything other than a temporary solution. Also, stop proposing adding DRL stops in low ridership locales just because you happen to live in them.

The alignment for DRL would be patently unsuitable for anything but a through expressway (if that) with no exit other other than at the ends. That's not how the Gardiner works currently - i.e a feeder line to the core. QED.

AoD
 
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Stop taking pride in lack of imagination. You'll get nothing, no DRL and no removal of Gardiner

Unfortunately ideas like yours won't get entertained. People are too stupid.

I don't expect too many people to see the value of such a project. Too much lack of imagination out there.

We can't think outside the box.

It's not that people are "too stupid" or lacking imagination, it's because your ideas are profoundly unfeasible and out of touch with reality.
 

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