Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[LNahid2000]

Build a tunnel under Richmond containing two westbound lanes and a shoulder on one level, and a westbound subway /LRT on another level. Have an eastbound tunnel under Adelaide. Have your stations on north-south streets between Richmond and Adelaide. All of this can be built with simple cut and cover. On and off ramps can simply climb to or decent from the street (Adelaide or Ricmond) which contains traffic flowing in the same direction as the tunnel. There is already a connection to the DVP along these routes. Done, Gardiner buried.

Terrible idea. Have you never read about the cost overruns of Boston's Big Dig, or Seattle's Alaskan Way Viaduct burial?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Terrible idea. Have you never read about the cost overruns of Boston's Big Dig, or Seattle's Alaskan Way Viaduct burial?

For those who are not familiar with the Seattle project, here is a fairly salty account that reads like a glass shattering on the floor in slow motion:

http://grist.org/cities/seattles-unbelievable-transportation-megaproject-fustercluck/

And latest news:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ertha-tunneling-stopped-after-sinkhole-forms/

Enjoy!

AoD

PS - some interesting personality and politics behind the mess:

http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/956883-129/how-bertha-beat-out-the-surface-street

 

[WislaHD]

For those who are not familiar with the Seattle project, here is a fairly salty account that reads like a glass shattering on the floor in slow motion:

http://grist.org/cities/seattles-unbelievable-transportation-megaproject-fustercluck/
AoD

This was the article that made me vehemently against any sort of notion of tunneling a highway under downtown Toronto.

I would rather spend the extra billion on a world-class bridge across our waterfront, guarantee it will end up cheaper than a tunnel after the massive cost overruns of the latter.

 

[Euphoria]

I know too much about the Big Dig and similar projects. Stop taking pride in lack of imagination. You'll get nothing, no DRL and no removal of Gardiner because you're too busy slamming each other to come to any agreement. Why build a lousy hybrid Gardiner that we'll decide to bury later on if we're considering digging for a DRL? Look to projects like Paris's A86 for a model of what I'm proposing.

 

[Hopkins123]

I know too much about the Big Dig and similar projects. Stop taking pride in lack of imagination. You'll get nothing, no DRL and no removal of Gardiner because you're too busy slamming each other to come to any agreement. Why build a lousy hybrid Gardiner that we'll decide to bury later on if we're considering digging for a DRL? Look to projects like Paris's A86 for a model of what I'm proposing.

I agree with you about the lack of imagination being displayed. We need something bold and visionary, we need a DRL like this:



I can't help but think we'd be much closer to making this a reality if not for the DumbTrack distraction.

 

[crs1026]

I can't help but think we'd be much closer to making this a reality if not for the DumbTrack distraction.

I can certainly buy it as far as Roncy. I wonder what the ridership would be if you had bus lanes on St Clair to Scarlett/Dundas, and west on Dundas to Islington, plus Crosstown West (bus or LRT), plus bus lanes on Scarlett to Dixon. And if it was pushed north one more station to Jane, with bus lanes north from there.

I wonder how the cost of the Roncy--northwest segment would compare to the cost of GO RER (by whatever name) with stops at Weston, Mount Dennis, Bloor, Liberty, and Union? What if that were LRT all the way from Jane/Finch, with transfer at Roncy (and LRT replacing streetcar west along the Queensway also)?

- Paul

 

[LNahid2000]

I know too much about the Big Dig and similar projects. Stop taking pride in lack of imagination. You'll get nothing, no DRL and no removal of Gardiner because you're too busy slamming each other to come to any agreement. Why build a lousy hybrid Gardiner that we'll decide to bury later on if we're considering digging for a DRL? Look to projects like Paris's A86 for a model of what I'm proposing.

Paris' A86 tunnel is nowhere near Paris' city centre and goes through lower density suburbs for the most part. It goes through parks for more than half its distance! It's nothing like building a tunnel under Adelaide/Richmond, which is in the middle of the city. Bad comparison.

 

[44 North]

I agree with you about the lack of imagination being displayed. We need something bold and visionary, we need a DRL like this:

I can't help but think we'd be much closer to making this a reality if not for the DumbTrack distraction.

I don't think I can imagine a station spacing that low. To keep things realistic, I'd probably remove Graydon Hall, Bond, Barber Greene, Mortimer, Carlaw, and Parliament from the east half.

 

[Hopkins123]

I don't think I can imagine a station spacing that low. To keep things realistic, I'd probably remove Graydon Hall, Bond, Barber Greene, Mortimer, Carlaw, and Parliament from the east half.

The midblock stops are necessary though if we want to eliminate bus service along Don Mills, Pape and Queen Street west of Pape entirely. Mortimer Stn would be next door to a college campus. Parliament even has Blue Night service now, not somewhere I'd omit.

I wonder how the cost of the Roncy--northwest segment would compare to the cost of GO RER (by whatever name) with stops at Weston, Mount Dennis, Bloor, Liberty, and Union?

Could be similar in cost. From Queen and Roncesvalles the subway could run in a trench to Bloor, so the only real tunneling would be from just south of Bloor to north of St Clair, then elevated in the rail corridor to Mount Dennis.

 

[WislaHD]

The midblock stops are necessary though if we want to eliminate bus service along Don Mills, Pape and Queen Street west of Pape entirely. Mortimer Stn would be next door to a college campus. Parliament even has Blue Night service now, not somewhere I'd omit.

I wonder how many in-fill stations like NYCC could end up appearing on the Relief Line.

Definitely think the stretch between Yonge St and the Don River has potential for intensification. There should be stops at Jarvis, Parliament and River streets, but looks like City Planning will stick with just Sherbourne and River.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I agree with you about the lack of imagination being displayed. We need something bold and visionary, we need a DRL like this:



I can't help but think we'd be much closer to making this a reality if not for the DumbTrack distraction.

Agreed. My only beef is with the west leg. I would argue that it needs to go to Dundas West and connect with Line 2 and GO/UP there. Also, it seems there is an opportunity to use the MacTier sub ROW used by CP Rail if the Missing Link for freight trains is ever built. I would probably go as far as the West Toronto (former) Diamond for Phase 1, and extend it further north into Weston as part of Phase 2 (when/if the Missing Link gets built). That would be a relatively cheap and easy extension.

 

[Euphoria]

Digging or tunneling under wide roads, especially ones without streetcars, should always be easy, as long as the water mains and services aren't too complex.

 

[LNahid2000]

Digging or tunneling under wide roads, especially ones without streetcars, should always be easy, as long as the water mains and services aren't too complex.

Are you an engineer? There are PATH connections under both Adelaide and Richmond, as well as many other things buried underground. This isn't going to be simple.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Path, sewers, basements, a ton of unmapped utilities. This is probably the most challenging area in Toronto to tunnel.

 

[rbt]

Path, sewers, basements, a ton of unmapped utilities. This is probably the most challenging area in Toronto to tunnel.

More utilities than normal too with lake water cooling, central heat ducting, and numerous fibre corridors to various buildings, including weird point to point things due to having 20+ data centers in the core 15 years ago (offsite real-time replication effectively required a dedicated point to point fibre; so we ran them).

Tunnelling won't be too bad as at that depth there won't be much. Digging down for the station will be a nightmare for those first 20 feet.