Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Whoaccio]

^Obviously that is some kind of propaganda. The good people at LRTNow! would never lie about the primacy of LRT in Europe.

On a more serious note, I remember comparing Toronto to approximately similar sized Euro cities, the only city having less than us being Rome, a city not exactly renowned for its 21st century infrastructure. Even small cities like Stockholm, Vienna and Hamburg beat us.

 

[MisterF]

^Obviously that is some kind of propaganda. The good people at LRTNow! would never lie about the primacy of LRT in Europe.

On a more serious note, I remember comparing Toronto to approximately similar sized Euro cities, the only city having less than us being Rome, a city not exactly renowned for its 21st century infrastructure. Even small cities like Stockholm, Vienna and Hamburg beat us.

I've said it before but it's worth repeating - even Rome is building a 3rd subway line in their central area, with a 4th to start construction in two years. And Athens, a smaller city in a poorer country, manages to have 4 lines in its core.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

^ I suspect the reasons for that being the case in Athens are *entirely* related to the Olympics and EU regional funding.

 

[AKS]

^ I suspect the reasons for that being the case in Athens are *entirely* related to the Olympics and EU regional funding.

Well, if you read previous posts, some here seem to think we have unlimited funding. If we ask for it, we would get it. It's just that we don't ask for the huge sums of funding for a subway. We just ask for small amounts, enough to build LRT instead.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Agreed. Miller and Giambrone are prisoners of their own timidity.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ I suspect the reasons for that being the case in Athens are *entirely* related to the Olympics and EU regional funding.

The blue line was extended to the airport in Athens for the Olympics but that's it. EU money definitely helps, though. Athens is also home to about a third of Greece's population...it's a lot easier to funnel national funding to something like transit projects when a country has only one large city. I'd also assume that Athens/Greece has simply chosen to spend more money on transit, something Toronto/Ontario/Canada could also do.

Well, if you read previous posts, some here seem to think we have unlimited funding. If we ask for it, we would get it. It's just that we don't ask for the huge sums of funding for a subway. We just ask for small amounts, enough to build LRT instead.

Actually, no one here thinks that we have unlimited funding.

Take a look at the currently projected price tags for the Transit City lines and you'll see that we certainly did not ask for small amounts of LRT. We asked for huge, multi-billion dollar sums for LRT lines, like Eglinton, and did not ask for anything for a line like the DRL, which, depending on how long it is, could easily cost less than Eglinton while serving more people. Fortunately, folks at the provincial level were kind enough to add the DRL to future plans.

Or, in the case of Scarborough, we did not ask for a modest sum for a subway extension so instead we're spending an even larger sum to rebuild the RT. Again, the subway project would serve more people than keeping the RT would. Unfortunately, the province has not yet corrected this mistake.

Here's the future of Athens' metro...it'll take decades to build all this.

 

[kettal]

DRL subway needs to be viewed not as a hand-out, but something which will pay for itself very quickly. It'll probably even be profitable.

 

[AKS]

Or, in the case of Scarborough, we did not ask for a modest sum for a subway extension so instead we're spending an even larger sum to rebuild the RT. Again, the subway project would serve more people than keeping the RT would. Unfortunately, the province has not yet corrected this mistake.

Are you saying it costs less to build the subway extension than it costs to rebuild the RT?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Are you saying it costs less to build the subway extension than it costs to rebuild the RT?

Actually, I'm pretty sure it would. That is, it would cost more to rebuild the RT along with it's extension to Malvern than it would to just build the subway to it's logical terminus at STC.

 

[AKS]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it would. That is, it would cost more to rebuild the RT along with it's extension to Malvern than it would to just build the subway to it's logical terminus at STC.

okay let's not assume and crunch those numbers. How long is the distance for the RT? Let's compare their estimate cost for the RT and the subway.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it would. That is, it would cost more to rebuild the RT along with it's extension to Malvern than it would to just build the subway to it's logical terminus at STC.

Yes, it would. There's hundreds of posts on this topic in other threads that crunch numbers.

AKS will undoubtedly respond that we can't compare a subway extension to STC with rebuilding and extending the RT, but we can and must since the extension effectively replaces a bus route serving 8000 rides a day and comes at the direct cost of not improving service for a solid >80% of the RT's ridership base and a much larger swath of Scarborough. More money will be spent to serve a fraction the number of riders, with certainly no net transit improvements.

The city chose to not extend the subway to STC and chose to spend more money on the RT than on a subway extension, just as the DRL was not chosen even though more money will be spent on other projects that serve fewer people. The city chose to erase all subway projects from future and official plans except those that enter York Region (since York wants them). It appears to be becoming blindingly obvious to most parties that the DRL is a necessity that can't be left to the whims of choice and hopefully this will help it get built sooner - or, at the very least, before the funding gets cut off again at some unknown point.

 

[gweed123]

^ I suspect the reasons for that being the case in Athens are *entirely* related to the Olympics and EU regional funding.

I thought that too, but then I saw the date on the map... What's the use in STARTING to build a line 3 years after the games??? Canada line in Vancouver it is not...

 

[GenerationW]

It appears to be becoming blindingly obvious to most parties that the DRL is a necessity that can't be left to the whims of choice and hopefully this will help it get built sooner - or, at the very least, before the funding gets cut off again at some unknown point.

If Miller and Giambrone keep getting re-elected, I have no confidence it'll ever get built.

 

[lead82]

Giambrone is an ardent LRT fan and does not get that in heavily populated corridors subways are better because they don't require widening and chopping off sidewalks and provide faster through speed and higher capacity that attracts more riders than LRT. I talked to him about the idiocy that is Sheppard subway + LRT and he said its no big deal, people can make a quick transfer, there is no demand from Scarborough to North York (well of course not with the lack of a seemless conection).

With Miller+Giambrone at the helm, the TTC will only get more bloated with service continuing to deteriorate.

 

[EnviroTO]

I talked to him about the idiocy that is Sheppard subway + LRT and he said its no big deal, people can make a quick transfer...

Every time I hear "quick transfers" or "convenient transfers" it bothers me. Transfers are inevitable but more effort is required to minimize the need for them. I don't think one should ever need to transfer more than twice on any trip within the city limits... beyond that all transfers are very inconvenient. If you tell someone who you are trying to get out of the car that using transit is simple but then the directions involve take bus A southbound, switch to LRT B westbound, transfer to subway C westbound, transfer to subway D southbound, and transfer to streetcar E westbound they are going to say "Screw it, I'll drive".