Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Forgotten]

Yup. I really want to know why Jarvis/Parliament was discounted in favor of Sherbourne.

Planning staff wanted a Sumach stop for social justice reasons.

The city has moved on from 1910 and so has the Official Plan but it appears the worker bees haven't received the memo. Why would you put it where people actually need to be and have some of the people walk when you can put it where nobody needs to be and force everyone to walk?

Here's a bucket of cold water for you downtowners... There's no PATH east of Yonge. There's no PATH west of University. You all seem to be unaware of this. That means the tens of thousands of office workers (who make wealth for the city and pay taxes) will have to be out in -20 cold in the winter just so the fat cats at City Hall get a stop.

It's like the city wants to continue its tradition of setting up things to fail like they have in decades past. (see Kennedy RT)

The last thing I want to face after a long hard day at work is a long needless walk brought about because someone wanted to design a workaround to justify their BA in PATH management.

Despite all the talk about the relief line these past few weeks...

View attachment 66465

Somewhere along the way the planners seem to have taken it upon themselves to unilaterally ignore the regional Yonge study underway and the requirement of having a second Union Station. If sanity prevails it will all be moot when Metrolinx comes in and lays the smackdown on Toronto planning and overrules them for the greater good.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Seeing that the western half of SmartTrack has completely dissolved, with that section only having 10 min frequencies, I wonder if there is now a business case to be made for bringing the Relief Line to Mt. Dennis (Eglinton) or beyond, via Dundas West Station, as SmartTrack's replacement.

For the Relief Line terminating at Dundas West, the YRNS forecasted low/moderate usage of 11,000 pphpd for 2031. The SmartTrack report showed demand of 11,500 pphpd, approaching Dundas West Station from the north, on SmartTrack including the western spur.

Obviously we can't directly compare these two reports with wildly different set of assumptions. But what this does show is that there is significant latent demand for a direct central west end to downtown rapid transit link. This is an idea that should explored in an official capacity in the relitavely near future, perhaps as soon as the completion of planning for the eastern Relief Line.

Also, tying the western Relief Line to a suburban subway could make the western RL easier to sell politically.

SmartTrack ridership forecasts: http://www1.toronto.ca/City Of Toronto/City Managers Office/Intergovernmental Relations/Files/PDF/SmartTrack Ridership Forecasts Report.pdf
Yonge Relief Network Study: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20150625/2015-06-25_Yonge_Relief_Network_Study.pdf
DRLNow has more info about a potential western Relief Line: http://www.drlnow.ca/

Mt Dennis to Don Mills (Fairview Mall) was always the best option and the best one to sell to the masses.

 

[Hopkins123]

Mt Dennis to Don Mills (Fairview Mall) was always the best option and the best one to sell to the masses.

To Don Mills/Finch (Seneca Newham Campus) is even a better option and would alleviate the busiest east-west bus route in the city (39/139/199 Finch East).

 

[44 North]

Mt Dennis to Don Mills (Fairview Mall) was always the best option and the best one to sell to the masses.

Mmm, that'd be a dream. And like how a DRL Long would replace/kill off the previously-planned Don Mills LRT, a western DRL up to Mt Dennis could somewhat replace aspects of the planned WWLRT and Jane LRT as well (depending on alignments chosen). So in a way a DRL West doesn't have to be considered some massive new project, rather a change/upgrade to existing plans.

***
And one thing I'm noticing is that people are getting hung up on there being a single one shortlist chosen (Queen), and that's that. But as the previous 1985 Relief Line plan is any indication, the one chosen plan still left the door open to more optimal route or mode changes that could be made prior to construction.

In that instance, the line chosen was to follow from Pape Stn to Eastern (and a new yard), then follow Eastern to become elevated alongside the rail corridor to the Don River. That wouldn't have changed. But at this juncture there were two alternative routings. The preferred route was to become elevated along/over the rail corridor to Cherry, then run at-grade along USRC through Union, then follow underground below Front. The more expensive other alternative was to be elevated along Front to Cherry, then run underground below Front to Wellington. Also, both plans left the door open for using ALRT or subway rolling stock.

So although we're being teased right now that Queen is the one single alignment that's been shortlisted, that doesn't rule out King also being chosen depending on how the functional design and EA is organized.

And there's also something that many (particularly the media) seem to be ignoring. And that's the issue of Metrolinx undertaking their very own Relief Line study - one that's about a year behind the City's plan, and one that does not include many of the City's RL criteria or city-building initiatives. So there's that issue to contend with. If they're holding the purse strings (or at least a significant chunk), I think they may very well shortlist a line that doesn't follow the City's alignment or station location. The dynamics of two potentially competing plans could be an interesting one when/if it occurs.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

To Don Mills/Finch (Seneca Newham Campus) is even a better option and would alleviate the busiest east-west bus route in the city (39/139/199 Finch East).

Even better. Then there would be pressure on Yonge most of the day.

Mmm, that'd be a dream. And like how a DRL Long would replace/kill off the previously-planned Don Mills LRT, a western DRL up to Mt Dennis could somewhat replace aspects of the planned WWLRT and Jane LRT as well (depending on alignments chosen). So in a way a DRL West doesn't have to be considered some massive new project, rather a change/upgrade to existing plans.

And it would provide a one transfer ride to the airport for 3.50 or whatnot.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

there is no way this is getting funded and construction started before SmartTrack is. I just don't see it happening

So we got new timelines for RER construction. Work on RER electrification begins in 2018 at Union Station. The first line to be electrified will be Lakeshore West. Work on the rest of the system won't be complete until 2024, and I'm not sure what date construction for those sections will start (but it will be significantly later than 2018).

The Relief Line is on track for construction starting in 2018, at the same time as RER's Union upgrades, and before any ST specific infrastructure. The RL should be opening around 2028, as has been previously cited by Metrolinx, 4 years after the completion of RER.

 

[Palma]

So we got new timelines for RER construction. Work on RER electrification begins in 2018 at Union Station. The first line to be electrified will be Lakeshore West. Work on the rest of the system won't be complete until 2024, and I'm not sure what date construction for those sections will start (but it will be significantly later than 2018).

The Relief Line is on track for construction starting in 2018, at the same time as RER's Union upgrades, and before any ST specific infrastructure. The RL should be opening around 2028, as has been previously cited by Metrolinx, 4 years after the completion of RER.

How is it possible for RL to be on track as I do not even remember council voting on the line and how it will be funded, nevermind the station stops or routes.I sure remember the numerous votes held on Scarborough subway and that was just whether for LRT or subway

 

[Tuscani01]

How is it possible for RL to be on track as I do not even remember council voting on the line and how it will be funded, nevermind the station stops or routes.I sure remember the numerous votes held on Scarborough subway and that was just whether for LRT or subway

Oh really? Might want to double check that...

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2014.PG33.12

Also, when did council vote on the Scarborough subway route or stops? It's no further along than the RL in terms of the planning process.

 

[Palma]

Oh really? Might want to double check that...

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2014.PG33.12

Also, when did council vote on the Scarborough subway route or stops? It's no further along than the RL in terms of the planning process.

they never voted on the stops, just LRT, subway, etc. So that was with Ford cause he wanted his subway to Scarborough and then they also agreed on DR, but Ford thought that was a 2nd priority. Guess all the big hopala with this constant Scarborough, that passaage of the DRL seems barely memeorable

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

It is interesting that you've mentioned DRL,... something downtown city planners have been pushing for,.... but it's always been viewed as another downtown thing so there's not much buy-in from the suburbs. Now they're marketing the DRL as a Yonge Relief Line by extending it northward from about Pape Station up through the Don Valley to Don Mills Staton on the Sheppard STUBway line. If this were to happen, who would ride on the Sheppard STUBway line???? Currently about 90% of Sheppard STUBway line riders are going from one end to the other,.... Yonge to DonMills or DonMills to Yonge,... very few get off or on at any of the in between stations. Realistically, the DRL could go up to EglintonCrosstown at DonMills (and releive midtown Yonge Line issues) but not likely to go up to Sheppard STUBway,... that's just marketing to get suburban support.

Categorically incorrect. The Relief Line would intercept bus riders on Sheppard, York Mills-Ellesmere, Lawrence and Eglinton. These are huge riderships.

North of Line 2, the Relief Line to Sheppard would intercept 12 significant bus routes totaling 237,000 daily riders:

25 Don Mills - 38,000
51 Leslie - 4000
56 Leaside - 3800
100 Flemingdon - 15,100
81 Thorncliffe - 6000
85 Sheppard E - 29,000
95 York Mills - 27,500
54 Lawrence E - 33,700
34 Eglinton E - 28,100
87 Cosburn - 9,400
24 Victoria Park - 24,800 (riders would transfer via ECLRT)
68 Warden - 17,900 (riders would transfer via ECLRT)
--------------------------
237,300

Questionable to add Victoria Park and Warden maybe, but heading downtown, transferring via ECLRT would be quicker than going the opposite direction Kennedy then taking the longer Line 2.

As for North York itself, the Relief Line would present North York residents with a quicker and less congested subway ride downtown than the Yonge Subway. Today it takes 45 minutes to go from Sheppard-Don Mills to St. Andrew Station via Sheppard-Yonge. With the Relief Line to Sheppard-Don Mills, the same trip to St. Andrew would take just 24 minutes.

All those bus commuters listed above would otherwise be transferring at Line 1, where North York residents already on the Yonge subway would then have to deal with sharing cramped standing room with (because lets face it, York Region commuters already took all the seating room at Finch). And finally, any Relief Line is of course a pre-requisite to any Yonge North extension.

North York residents should really be getting behind the Relief Line bandwagon. They are among the ones to benefit the most from a Relief Line to Sheppard, even if they continue to commute via Line 1.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If a Sheppard East LRT goes in east of DonMills, the terminus for Sheppard STUBway,... Metrolinx was looking at converting the Sheppard STUBway to LRT line,... problem is with height clearance needed for electrical infrastructure of LRT wiring. In which case it might be more viable to put in Sheppard West LRT to Downsview,.... city is already accumulating land for Sheppard widening from development. But again, a Sheppard West STUBway or LRT isn't on MetroLinx's radar. Realistically, this is the only way I can see any transit happening along this stretch of SheppardWest,.... and that's only if Sheppard East get LRT vs expensive money draining subway AND they convert current Sheppard STUBway line to LRT,.... AND both projects came in under-budget such that there was enough money for Sheppard West LRT to Downsview station. And all this has to happen before Finch West LRT between Keele and Yonge gets approved. Thus, there's a whole lot of IFs,... Anyways, I'll be betting on the Finch West LRT between Keele & Yonge getting approval.


It is interesting that you've mentioned DRL,... something downtown city planners have been pushing for,.... but it's always been viewed as another downtown thing so there's not much buy-in from the suburbs. Now they're marketing the DRL as a Yonge Relief Line by extending it northward from about Pape Station up through the Don Valley to Don Mills Staton on the Sheppard STUBway line. If this were to happen, who would ride on the Sheppard STUBway line???? Currently about 90% of Sheppard STUBway line riders are going from one end to the other,.... Yonge to DonMills or DonMills to Yonge,... very few get off or on at any of the in between stations. Realistically, the DRL could go up to EglintonCrosstown at DonMills (and releive midtown Yonge Line issues) but not likely to go up to Sheppard STUBway,... that's just marketing to get suburban support.

The Relief Line extension north to Sheppard isn't a marketing ploy any more than the Yonge Line extension to Finch was. Remember, the Relief Line to Sheppard will have the same ridership as the Yonge Line to Finch, according to Metrolinx.

 

[MisterF]

Categorically incorrect. The Relief Line would intercept bus riders on Sheppard, York Mills-Ellesmere, Lawrence and Eglinton. These are huge riderships.

North of Line 2, the Relief Line to Sheppard would intercept 12 significant bus routes totaling 237,000 daily riders:

25 Don Mills - 38,000
51 Leslie - 4000
56 Leaside - 3800
100 Flemingdon - 15,100
81 Thorncliffe - 6000
85 Sheppard E - 29,000
95 York Mills - 27,500
54 Lawrence E - 33,700
34 Eglinton E - 28,100
87 Cosburn - 9,400
24 Victoria Park - 24,800 (riders would transfer via ECLRT)
68 Warden - 17,900 (riders would transfer via ECLRT)
--------------------------
237,300

Questionable to add Victoria Park and Warden maybe, but heading downtown, transferring via ECLRT would be quicker than going the opposite direction Kennedy then taking the longer Line 2.

As for North York itself, the Relief Line would present North York residents with a quicker and less congested subway ride downtown than the Yonge Subway. Today it takes 45 minutes to go from Sheppard-Don Mills to St. Andrew Station via Sheppard-Yonge. With the Relief Line to Sheppard-Don Mills, the same trip to St. Andrew would take just 24 minutes.

All those bus commuters listed above would otherwise be transferring at Line 1, where North York residents already on the Yonge subway would then have to deal with sharing cramped standing room with (because lets face it, York Region commuters already took all the seating room at Finch). And finally, any Relief Line is of course a pre-requisite to any Yonge North extension.

North York residents should really be getting behind the Relief Line bandwagon. They are among the ones to benefit the most from a Relief Line to Sheppard, even if they continue to commute via Line 1.

Well put, and we can't forget that there will be significant induced ridership as well. Any time there's an expansion more people start using the system, whether it's highways, subway lines, or bike lanes. The RL will have huge ridership and when it's finally open everyone will wonder why it wasn't built decades ago.

 

[Palma]

[QUOTE="iRT)
--------------------------

All those bus commuters listed above would otherwise be transferring at Line 1, where North York residents already on the Yonge subway would then have to deal with sharing cramped standing room with (because lets face it, York Region commuters already took all the seating room at Finch). And finally, any Relief Line is of course a pre-requisite to any Yonge North extension.
.[/QUOTE]

Why should there be a North Extension? Subway is for Toronto not RichmonHill not beyond
Vaughan extension through Spadina should not have happened either

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Why should there be a North Extension? Subway is for Toronto not RichmonHill not beyond
Vaughan extension through Spadina should not have happened either

We may have to start thinking regionally rather than locally in the future, even if it makes us Torontonians uneasy.

That being said, an extension to Newtonbrook Plaza and Steeles within the municipal borders is definitely warranted, probably more so than any other transit project after the Relief Line.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well put, and we can't forget that there will be significant induced ridership as well. Any time there's an expansion more people start using the system, whether it's highways, subway lines, or bike lanes. The RL will have huge ridership and when it's finally open everyone will wonder why it wasn't built decades ago.

The Relief Line extension to Sheppard is the biggest no brainer in Toronto transit history since we built the Yonge Line. I'm hard pressed to find any legitimate planning reasons to oppose the project.