Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

TrickyRicky:
Toronto's mass rail transit system is so small that it might be too early to think in this manner; however, one of the great things I think about the worlds great mass rail transit systems like London's or Tokyo's for example is redundancy. The power of a redundant system is that it is more like a network. Networks don't necessarily transport people from a to b the fastest but what they do is add reliability. Reliability is the key to behaviour modification. People want to get from a to b fast but they won't choose a fast a to b system if it is unreliable, most people will still just drive. A subway or urban rail rider in London or Tokyo knows that if the subway line is down they have an alternate route, they know that they can avoid certain lines at certain times of the day or avoid certain parts of the city if say a major sports game lets out etc. They have choice and flexibility.

So basically the argument I am making is along with any a to b arguments the DRL is probably Toronto's first major foray into creating a subway network. The existing Spadina / Yonge line loop is also a network but the stations are so closely spaced East-West that it isn't particularly powerful. Yes, we already have an overall transit network but it isn't the same psychologically.

The question I have is why does the alternative or redundancy have to be provided by a subway line? Why are we so wedded to the idea that only the DRL can relieve Yonge-Bloor? A proper suburban rail service with two-way all day service would take a ton of riders off the subway network. It would also cut commute times by a third for a lot of suburbanites. I'd suggest that if you do this, you'd find a lot more willingness to pay taxes for transit then.
 
Well on the positive side, at least we do have two transit lines well under construction: Spadina extension & Eglinton Crosstown.

Eglinton will be a big addition to our transit system map at 20km, almost quadruple the length of the Sheppard subway. So we will have a "Line 5".

It's also possible that Finch West and Sheppard East won't get cancelled. It's possible!
 
keithz, I'm not a transit guy so I don't have the depth of knowledge others here have but the key point for me is the psychological element. What I mean is that people need to feel that different lines are part of the same network even if they use different technologies, vehicles, track guages, vehicle fleets. The lines need to be branded together and transfers need to be seamless. As long as GO and subway or subway and LRT are separately branded they will not in my opinion change behaviour to the extent they can. Boston runs streetcars in their T system, Taipei runs tiny two car vehicles on if I remember correctly their brown line but the point is they all exist together on the "subway" map. They are part of the network in the public's imagination. So I am not arguing against using GO corridors for downtown relief, I don't know any better for or against but as long as one system is called GO and one is called TTC subway they will not capture the imagination and fundamentally change public perception and behavour.
 
Toronto's subway system is so small for it's size with no new expansions underway save the whopping 8km Spadina line that Toronto will probably never catch up. It could at one point but that would require Toronto to do the unthinkable........elevation and especially using it's current rail corridors. The rule rather than the norm is nearly all cities but somehow both are considered heresy in Toronto.

The DRL is needed eventually but the reality is that at this point is that it will not result in a lot of new ridership and still won't make one minute of difference in people's commute times. This is also Toronto and the earliest it would get done to even the Danforth Line would probably be 2030.

Torontonians need rapid transit and they need it today and this is where a GO Rex system would be ideal. It could literally start tomorrow if there was the political will. All it really requires is a signature on a piece of paper to make all GO trips within the city part of the standard TTC fare. All of a sudden people from Malvern to Humber to Miminco to Rouge Hill would have rapid, reliable, and affordable mass transit. The stations and rail are already there just waiting for that signature.

More trains, electrification, and additional needed stops could be brought in gradually but it would make a huge difference today. One of the problems Toronto has about convincing people that they should pony up more taxes for transit is that Metrolinx, the TTC, and City Hall have zero credibility in bringing in projects on time and on budget. People simply do not trust the government/agencies to spend their tax dollars wisely and why should they? Adding a bus stop in Toronto seems to need a Royal commission and 5 Enviornmental Reviews. GO Rex is something that could be brought in the very same day the taxes/fees take effect...people would actually see results in their lifetime.

A DRL eventually but the need is too urgent to wait for Toronto to get it's act together.
 
A proper suburban rail service with two-way all day service would take a ton of riders off the subway network. It would also cut commute times by a third for a lot of suburbanites.

Keithz,

While I support the idea of an S-bahn/RER for Toronto, and would rank it second in importance to the DRL for the GTA, I really think that that should be a distant second priority. While I think we really need to improve long-distance, rapid regional commuting options, I don't think it's quite the panacea you say it will be.

For starters, the mother of all S-bahn systems, the RER, is not as successful as its proponents would make it out to be. It serves 465 million riders a year. That's more than the entire TTC system, to be sure, but considering that it serves a catchment area of 12 million people, has 590 km of network trackage and has been the recipient of basically the lion's share of rapid transit investment in the Paris metropolitan region for over 40 years, that's not that impressive. It's also not impressive when you compare it against the metro, itself, which has 1.5 billion riders within a catchment area of, maybe, 3.5 million people and has basically only witnessed incremental expansion since the 1970s.

Secondly, this is the RER in Paris. Paris' suburban lines pass through hundreds of town centres with existing walkable neighbourhoods and surface transit links. Toronto's GO network largely passes through postwar industrial parks and sidings. Prior to the RER, Paris' suburban network was served by a legacy network of electrified, grade-separated suburban railways that largely stopped at heavy duty stations that only had to be upgraded. In some cases, all you had to do was rebrand the line and buy new rolling stock. In Toronto's case, practically the entire GO-REX system will have to be built from scratch. Consider the Stouffville line, which basically consists of unmanned shelters for stations along a single track diesel railway line with surface crossings. Everything about this would have to change, and it won't be cheap.

I think that dense metro networks that serve medium-distance everyday travel needs in dense, metropolitan cities are going to win over S-bahns in ridership potential every time. I bet that if you spent $7B on a DRL or $7B on GO-REX run to RER standards, that the DRL will have a higher ridership. Sure, you would argue that it does nothing for suburban commuters (I wouldn't, but let's assume that's the case), but, frankly, winning over suburban commuters - many of whom commute suburb-to-suburb in commutes that transit will never be competitive with, anyway - shouldn't be the MO of transit expansion. I think that it's much more beneficial to build a dense, inner city subway grid than to build a giant, radial network of S-bahn lines. The DRL does this. It not only relieves the Yonge line, but opens up the possibility of traveling to the dense, job-rich and transit-poor areas of Toronto south of Bloor street and outside of the immediate downtown core.
 
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Toronto's subway system is so small for it's size with no new expansions underway save the whopping 8km Spadina line ...
8 km is roughly a 10% addition to the 79-km network. And then there's that 10-km subway tunnel being currently constructed under Eglinton. Not to mention the 7 km fully funded Danforth extension that's planned. Not to mention the Ontario government's promise to fund at a minimum 6 km of the DRL from Pape to Queen.

Toronto seems to have it's act together. As long as we don't do anything too rash, and elect either Hudak or Howarth, we should see some progress.
 
8 km is roughly a 10% addition to the 79-km network. And then there's that 10-km subway tunnel being currently constructed under Eglinton. Not to mention the 7 km fully funded Danforth extension that's planned. Not to mention the Ontario government's promise to fund at a minimum 6 km of the DRL from Pape to Queen.

Toronto seems to have it's act together. As long as we don't do anything too rash, and elect either Hudak or Howarth, we should see some progress.

Toronto will more than double the size of its LRT/RT network within the next 10 years. (GIF - Dates are approximate)

Not to mention the Ontario government's promise to fund at a minimum 6 km of the DRL from Pape to Queen.

The $7.4 Billion Relief Line is 13 km according to this Metrolinx doc.
 
I'd like to see some money for eglinton west and maybe bring the western leg of the DRL to Weston Eglinton.

While I'd love to see the Eg West LRT extension, DRL seems much more urgent.

Both the Liberals and Progressive Conservatives at Queen’s Park agree on the urgent need for the line, although they differ on how to pay for it. Transit officials and planning experts typically say it is the obvious next expansion project for the subway system. And even Toronto Mayor Rob Ford, who once said downtown had “enough†subway lines, says the DRL is a priority, although he usually places it after new subways on Sheppard and Finch avenues.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com//new...on-downtown-subway-expansion/article16911609/

So even Rob Ford is supporting the DRL now. Everyone agrees!
 
The DRL is needed eventually but the reality is that at this point is that it will not result in a lot of new ridership and still won't make one minute of difference in people's commute times. This is also Toronto and the earliest it would get done to even the Danforth Line would probably be 2030.
I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that the DRL wouldn't improve commute times. It would be faster from Pape to downtown than existing lines no matter now many stations it has. It would be much, much faster than any of the streetcar lines it would relieve. The DRL is needed now, not eventually.
 

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