Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[crs1026]

I really appreciate the 501 for hop on hop off service & being able to view stores I might want to stop at rather than going blindly through tunnels.

Crazy thought, but what if both the King & Queen streetcars had priority access over cars for the central portions of their routes just on different days of the week? So car traffic would be diverted off King during the work week, then it would switch to car traffic being diverted off Queen during the weekend (but allowed back on King for those two days?)

I suspect that would just confuse people, and might require a lot of signage and road markings (and HTA/municipal by-laws for soecific intersections) that would be unduly complicated.

There are those who will say "just put streetcar only lanes on both King and Queen" - but that would exacerbate a hugely congested road situation. Sorry, but we do need efficient east-west road access to the downtown as well as better transit. Pick one of King/Queen for road efficiency, and one for transit efficiency. Arguably Queen would actually be better with streetcars as it's the more vibrant street right west to Parkdale.... whereas King is already kind of sterile (relatively) and might be less harmed (relative to today) by a roadcentric character.

Or, do the reverse, as King is slightly less constrained by intersections and is more amenable to lengthening distance between streetcar stops.... and let the trams really fly along that route.

I can see arguments either way, but one or the other would improve either way.

And, if Ontario line were ever extended to Roncy/Queen, perhaps plodding hop-on/hop-off streetcars on both might remain attractive, but ridership might well fall off beyond a cost-benefit point. And pressure for smoother road throughput will only grow with time. Bloor-Danforth didn't keep its streetcars, nor did Yonge. There's a reality check in that.

- Paul

 

[T3G]

If they’re going beyond Bathurst from the west or beyond Yonge from the East why would they get on the Queen Streetcar to begin with?

Because the Ontario line doesn't go where they're going. The line won't even run west of Bathurst on Queen in the first place, and it certainly wouldn't be a smart use of time to head up to line 2 and then use whatever feeder bus is at the nearest station.

 

[micheal_can]

What if in at least the central core, the streetcar lines were in reserved lanes,without any additional infrastructure?
Keep the streets open for traffic, but no parking or stopping. And, at lights, no left turns?

It would be easy to do and simple for drivers to understand. And be easy to enforce.

 

[KhalilHeron]

What if in at least the central core, the streetcar lines were in reserved lanes,without any additional infrastructure?
Keep the streets open for traffic, but no parking or stopping. And, at lights, no left turns?

It would be easy to do and simple for drivers to understand. And be easy to enforce.

also makes for an way for easier conversion to lrt standards and removal of traffic in the future

 

[micheal_can]

also makes for an way for easier conversion to lrt standards and removal of traffic in the future

If need be, yes.

 

[nightstreak]

Because the Ontario line doesn't go where they're going. The line won't even run west of Bathurst on Queen in the first place, and it certainly wouldn't be a smart use of time to head up to line 2 and then use whatever feeder bus is at the nearest station.

You’re describing all of Etobicoke. Today.

If you’re on the west end anywhere east of Roncesvalles and would prefer to submit yourself to the masochism of riding in transit in mixed traffic instead of taking a short bus to a subway line that runs across the entire city, then you could take the King 504 or Dundas 505 whichever is closer to you on Queen.

If you’re going anywhere after Bathurst, and you’re sitting on the 501, then you’re on the wrong streetcar, my friend. This streetcar is turning south on Bathurst towards Exhibition Station — but good news, the next stop is King-Bathurst station and you can take Line 3, one… two.. three or more stops to continue heading east.

If youre going way farther east, say to Riverdale, then you took one long streetcar to transfer to Line 3 for the rest of your journey.

People transfer lines to get to where they’re going. They walk between subway stations. Welcome to Living on a subway… today.

 

[CapitalSeven]

A few people are not going to conform to the quickest theoretical trip scenario, especially when they experience the very long transfers at Yonge and Osgoode. I lived in Hong Kong and frequently took the tram or double decker just to enjoy the view and avoid the crush of the subway.

 

[T3G]

A few people are not going to conform to the quickest theoretical trip scenario, especially when they experience the very long transfers at Yonge and Osgoode. I lived in Hong Kong and frequently took the tram or double decker just to enjoy the view and avoid the crush of the subway.

Prague is the same. The existence of crosstown metro routes in no way resulted in the extinction of long crosstown tram routes, too, even though very few people use them to travel from one end of the city to another.

Cutting the 501 in the central section would be a complete own goal.

taking a short bus to a subway line that runs across the entire city,

And those connecting buses don't sit in traffic?

in mixed traffic instead of taking a short bus to a subway line that runs across the entire city, then you could take the King 504 or Dundas 505 whichever is closer to you on Queen.

The shorter your journey is, the less sense it makes to do so. And you are making a faulty assumption by assuming everyone in this discussion is making long crosstown journeys, sometimes they're short to medium length journeys where transferring doesn't make any sense at all.

I'll give you some examples from Google Maps transit planning as of right now:

-Roncesvalles to Yonge and Queen: 38 minutes by 501 vs 51 minutes by 504 -> 2 -> 1 or 53 minutes by 47 -> 2 -> 1
-Dufferin to Parliament: 38 minutes by 501 vs 53 minutes by 29/929 -> 2 -> 65
-Bathurst to Leslie: 43 minutes by 501 vs 1 hour by 511 -> 2 -> 31 or 57 minutes by 511 -> 2 -> 83
-Bathurst to Church*: 21 minutes by 501 vs 31 minutes by 505 and it refuses to even give me options for going up to Bloor Street

Examples like this will continue to exist post-OL. The asterisked journey is exactly the kind of straight-shot journey you are proposing to nix post-OL, even though the idea that it will be faster to go via the OL makes no sense. There will be a subset of the population for whom it makes sense to transfer to a subway to continue their journey, and another subset of the population for whom it will make more sense to remain on the streetcar. And that's to say nothing of the mobility challenges some people face that will make it impractical for them to traverse the 823 meters between Spadina and University, or the 820 meters between Yonge and Sherbourne, on a street that is lined with small shops and is definitely not suburban style fly-over country. Unless you are envisioning turning Queen Central into a dingy traffic sewer a la Richmond or Adelaide?

 

[McGillicuddy]

On the topic of mobility, there will also be people who would much rather ride a surface-level streetcar than descend four storeys, ride one stop on a subway, then climb four storeys back out again.

 

[nightstreak]

What if in at least the central core, the streetcar lines were in reserved lanes,without any additional infrastructure?
Keep the streets open for traffic, but no parking or stopping. And, at lights, no left turns?

I would be in favour of limited traffic on Queen from Yonge to Spadina. It solves the rest of the issues brought up. If I'm at Queen and Yonge and I need to get to Queen and Spadina, would I go down to the subway or would I get on the 501 and sit through mixed traffic? Of course I would choose the subway. But remove the cars from Yonge to Spadina and that's an easy choice: I'd get on the streetcar for 5 local stops.

This should be an easily sellable premise from Victoria to University because by the time Line 3 opens, Queen Street from Victoria to Bay will have been shut down for over 5 years. Driver behaviour has already changed in just these first few years. Traffic on the stretch of Queen from Bay to University is minuscule because drivers no longer use it to cross the city E-W due to the blockage at Bay St.

As has been brought up before, closing Queen Street in front of the Sheraton and Nathan Phillips entirely to cars is difficult because of parking entrances but it could be turned into a narrow woonerf with no cars allowed in the central streetcar lane.

University to Spadina would require more political capital to pull off, specially with the subway already under Queen Street.

It would be easy to do and simple for drivers to understand. And be easy to enforce.

I will point out that King Street had reserved lanes with just signage for decades but nobody respected it. Yes, before the King Street Pilot centre lanes were reserved for streetcars but never enforced. You'd need to change the road to get cars out of the streetcar lane and to discourage car traffic on Queen.

 

[micheal_can]

I will point out that King Street had reserved lanes with just signage for decades but nobody respected it. Yes, before the King Street Pilot centre lanes were reserved for streetcars but never enforced. You'd need to change the road to get cars out of the streetcar lane and to discourage car traffic on Queen.

Enforcement of the laws seems to be a bigger issues these days, not just for a transit mall. Simple as cops sitting along the street and handing out tickets during rush hour would go a long way. Not warnings either. A ticket. Then they can either fight it or pay it and learn.

 

[nightstreak]

Enforcement of the laws seems to be a bigger issues these days, not just for a transit mall. Simple as cops sitting along the street and handing out tickets during rush hour would go a long way. Not warnings either. A ticket. Then they can either fight it or pay it and learn.

Yes. But if you need cops enforcing a road design then the road design already failed.

I just walked by King and Yonge. Soooooo many drivers going through what is a solid red light. So many of them. Completely oblivious. There are a lot of inadequate drivers out there but this is a road design issue. It looks like they can drive there, so they drive there.

Honestly, the city could print money at that corner.

 

[micheal_can]

Yes. But if you need cops enforcing a road design then the road design already failed.

I just walked by King and Yonge. Soooooo many drivers going through what is a solid red light. So many of them. Completely oblivious. There are a lot of inadequate drivers out there but this is a road design issue. It looks like they can drive there, so they drive there.

Honestly, the city could print money at that corner.

I am looking at low cost solutions that require very little closure of the area. It would be a couple of hours to post signs. Then it is just having them out there. What you are talking is weeks of construction closing the line.

 

[ethan.l.cecc]

I would be in favour of limited traffic on Queen from Yonge to Spadina. It solves the rest of the issues brought up. If I'm at Queen and Yonge and I need to get to Queen and Spadina, would I go down to the subway or would I get on the 501 and sit through mixed traffic? Of course I would choose the subway. But remove the cars from Yonge to Spadina and that's an easy choice: I'd get on the streetcar for 5 local stops.

This should be an easily sellable premise from Victoria to University because by the time Line 3 opens, Queen Street from Victoria to Bay will have been shut down for over 5 years. Driver behaviour has already changed in just these first few years. Traffic on the stretch of Queen from Bay to University is minuscule because drivers no longer use it to cross the city E-W due to the blockage at Bay St.

As has been brought up before, closing Queen Street in front of the Sheraton and Nathan Phillips entirely to cars is difficult because of parking entrances but it could be turned into a narrow woonerf with no cars allowed in the central streetcar lane.

University to Spadina would require more political capital to pull off, specially with the subway already under Queen Street.



I will point out that King Street had reserved lanes with just signage for decades but nobody respected it. Yes, before the King Street Pilot centre lanes were reserved for streetcars but never enforced. You'd need to change the road to get cars out of the streetcar lane and to discourage car traffic on Queen.

Since we brought up pedestrianizing Queen, I'll leav something I drew up earlier this year for the Victoria to University Section (split at Old City hall because of the file size)

 

[nfitz]

If they’re going beyond Bathurst from the west or beyond Yonge from the East why would they get on the Queen Streetcar to begin with?

Riders’ route calculations will no doubt change once there’s an underground transit line that’ll get them across town in 15 minutes from say Riverside/Leslieville on Queen street in the East end or from Exhibition in Liberty Village.

I live about a 15 min walk to Line 1. I’m lucky to be near the subway but I still gotta walk — or I can take a bus to the station. If I’m going to let’s say Queen and Spadina, I still have to take 3 vehicles or walk to the subway and take 2.

When I lived in Riverdale, I’d walk to Queen to get on the 501 to Queen and Spadina, about a 40 minute streetcar ride if I’m lucky there’s no traffic. When Line 3 is built why would I get on the streetcar to Yonge and then take the subway 2 stops when I can just get on the subway at Riverside or Gerrard stations and be at Queen and Spadina in 10-15 minutes?

People aren’t going to take part of their old route just for kicks. They’ll recalculate what options they have for the entire route and the 501 will almost always lose if you’re going downtown from a present-501 approximate stop and will almost certainly lose every time if you’re crossing through downtown.

I think you overestimate the number of people who would give up a single-seat ride, to save a couple of minutes. Especially given how often the second or third vehicle doesn't appear. One in hand is worth two in the bush (or perhaps a 501 in hand is worth a 3 in the tunnel) .

Riverside/Leslieville is a whole different story (I don't think many will be backtracking from busy spots like Broadview and River, in the wrong direction to the subway). Nor do I think someone who wants to go to Queen/Ossington will head due south to Exhibition station.

Will someone coming on a cold windy day from Queen and Woodbine to Ontario (to use a ride I used to take) get off at Leslieville, trapse through the slush to the station, stand on a cold windy platform, and then come out at Moss Park, go up (4?) flights of escalators, and traipse back to Ontario? The subway ride might be 6 minutes, but it will be a couple of minute to get to the station, and at least 5 minutes to get out and back to Ontario. That's 13 minutes + whatever you wait for a train. Let's say 2 minutes. About 15 minutes total. Right now (5 pm Saturday) the schedule says that's a 16-minute trip if you stay on the streetcar. With little risk that there is a "trespasser at track level". At peak, 8 AM on Tuesday morning it's only a 17-minute trip on the streetcar! And 18-minutes on Tuesday at 5 pm.

Meanwhile, you've already got a seat on the streetcar; and getting on near downtown, and what I assume will be cattle cars, you'll be standing on the subway train.

People transfer lines to get to where they’re going. They walk between subway stations. Welcome to Living on a subway… today.

Then why in London do you see so many buses running on a road, with a tube line under it? (because if you are only going 5 bus stops, you'll get there, before you walk (or more likely elevator) down to the station platform, go one or two stops, and then walk (or elevate) back up again?

Why don't we see a lot more people get off the subway at Main Street and walk to Danforth GO.