Toronto/Montreal comparisons (ain't pretty...)

[TonyV]

... in frumpy old Hogtown.

Not as frumpy as it used to be (thankfully), but the present degree of frumpiness will be as is until we kick the Fordites out. Rob Ford=Ontario, not Toronto.

I could go on raving about Montreal...but it does have it's drawbacks. Being in Quebec is a big one

I could go on arguing that Toronto's biggest drawback is that it is stuck with Ontario.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Good lord!

Electrify, I'm glad you discovered Montreal and that it is a wonderful city and that we have much to learn from the things it gets right. Keep on exploring new cities and cultivating your love for urban experiences.

 

[Tewder]

The frumpyness didn't begin with Ford Nation, though it certainly wont help... and there are lots of non-frumpy places in Ontario outside of Toronto, with better streetscapes and nicer public spaces. I was just in Kingston recently and was quite impressed with the preservation of heritage there, the upkeep of the little waterfront and city hall/market place area and the busyness of its streets... all relatively speaking of course as Kingston's population is only barely little more than 100K!

 

[TonyV]

The frumpyness didn't begin with Ford Nation, though it certainly wont help... and there are lots of non-frumpy places in Ontario outside of Toronto, with better streetscapes and nicer public spaces. I was just in Kingston recently and was quite impressed with the preservation of heritage there, the upkeep of the little waterfront and city hall/market place area and the busyness of its streets... all relatively speaking of course as Kingston's population is only barely little more than 100K!

Kingston is a stuffy old place that doesn't have the pressure of growth.

 

[Thanos]

Kingston is a stuffy old place that doesn't have the pressure of growth.

True, but you have to admit Kingston is beautiful.
Wasn't the Toronto Act supposed to give it more leeway in making it's own decisions?

An interesting question many of you should ask is what would have happened to old Montreal if the city kept on growing in the 70s-90s the way Toronto did. You can say that they got lucky by not being in a growth spurt during what i think was the worst decades of city building.

And we'll see how that interesting architecture can hold up as there have already been 3 beautiful homes in the Plateau district that have collapsed during renovations this year.

If you all want to look at Montreal then the new Quartier des Spectacles area is an example we can use for our Entertainment District and John Street revitalization.

Adma, i was referring more to the 7 major cities financial situation, and Toronto is in the top 3.

 

[TonyV]

True, but you have to admit Kingston is beautiful.
Wasn't the Toronto Act supposed to give it more leeway in making it's own decisions?
...

I think the Kingston aside has gotten as much as it deserves; apples to apples please. Kingston's main industry is the retirement industry.

As for the Toronto Act, it is recent, and it will yield results for sure, but we need time. By the way, it is only recent that the City of Toronto was allowed to have a design review panel. I wonder if that will get squashed by Fordites? Also, there is still the OMB. We don't have the autonomy we deserve here in Toronto.

 

[Electrify]

They keep the train stations fairly clean I'll give them that but to assume the trains are well maintained is ridiculous. The train cars are just as dirty as Toronto's. They break down on a daily basis. Last year one of the cars took off with all of it's doors opened. It's not fun getting stuck in the middle of a tunnel. Try using it in winter with your heavy jacket and see how much weight you'll loose from all the sweat.

I was only there for a week, but I had no issues with the reliability of the trains. As far as I could tell, the trains always performed at speed, and didn't operate extra slowly as they sometimes do in Toronto. With that said, I will admit I didn't take the subway during the rush hour, and for the most part I didn't ride the trains to the ends of the line (the Yellow Line to QUAM being the exception).

High Park is just as beautiful and the ravines throughout Toronto are incredible. They might not be as centrally located and not have the same views.

You know, I don't think I have ever been to High Park. In fairness to Toronto too, we do have some gorgeous beaches and parks along the lake. However, we could benefit from having better transit access to them (on another forum, I proposed a BRT to address this).

Just curious but which street are you referring to?

Boulevard Rene-Levesque. The bus route was 535 Reserved lane Du Parc/Côte-des-Neiges. Montreal also has an extensive number of bus routes which run express or in their own lanes.

So can the subway.

The trains were fairly well ventilated. At the very least, it was a relief to enter one from waiting in a hot station. The heat doesn't bother me as much as the cold though, so I could see how some would feel very uncomfortable using public transportation there.

Maybe so, however Victoria Square is not used as much. Many prefer Jacques Cartier square in the old Montreal region. It gets some use during the office lunch period but at nights and weekends can sometimes get deserted. Both could use some better planning. YD in the aesthetics department and Victoria in the attracting more pedestrian life.

I didn't go to Jacques Cartier Square, but the thing I liked about Victoria Square specifically was the amount of greenery there. This contrasts to Dundas Square with its liberal use of grey concrete.

Well La Ronde has been in private hands since 2001. Before that it was fairly bland and was in a terrible financial situation. Are you ready to sell off Ontario Place to a private amusement park developer?

Are you trying to give Rob Ford ideas . Seriously, the current management at Ontario Place have explicitly said they want to have it compete more with Wonderland. La Ronde is a great example of how they could do this with a limited footprint.

You are way off with this comment. I lived in Montreal for over 2 decades. The old Montreal area is great but the city lacks direction in every other area.

I'll admit that I was in the inner-city for my entire visit, so I can't comment on how other parts of the city are doing, but at least the inner city felt... right. Montreal felt vibrant and livable, without feeling overwhelmed like Toronto can.

How long were you there for? The city of Montreal has barely grown in population. Several of the young people leave for the suburbs. Part of the reason is the low supply of condos compared to rental units. Laval has exploded in population and the West Island is expanding further west to outside the island. The sprawl of the 60s-80s didn't occur then because the city was in a declining period. Downtown Montreal in the 90s was a wasteland, nobody wanted to go there. They've improved but to imply that people live there because it's a beautifully planned city is completely false. Montreal is 20 years behind Toronto on the sprawl but it will get there.

As I said, I was there for about a week. I will admit that you do make a good point about the different time frames making an impact on urban livability. Toronto's downtown was also very depressed in the decades after WWII, but by the 90s it was rebounding quite nicely. Maybe in another 20 years Montreal's downtown will have that same overwhelming feeling that Toronto has.

 

[Observer Walt]

I'm in Montreal quite a bit on business and I find that many of the younger 'cool' people there are very interested in Toronto and express it all the time to me. I think even the most hautain of Montreal champions realize that it's a bit silly to talk about Montreal superiority when comparing themselves to a city such as Toronto which is one of North America's largest and most dynamic, no matter what Montreal's charms or assets... which are many, by the way.

In a way though the fact that Montreal is sort of off the radar is one of its assets. It is taking risks and looking to innovate itself within its urban realm to a degree that is inconceivable here in frumpy old Hogtown.

I am a bit reluctant to get involved in a "city vs. city" discussion but some interestimg points have been made here. I am in Montreal about once per year, occasionally on business, more frequently just for personal visits. I have watched some important changes in Mtl over the past five years or so. The city is coming out of 30 years of vegetating (a bit exaggerated I know). The loss of tens of thousands of people during the 1970s and 1980s caused a lot of damage, and they were not all unilingual anglophones. Toronto clearly took the lead during those decades. I well remember derelict lots on Ste. Catherine Street, Mtl's rough equivalent of Yonge Street. A sign on a prominent vacant site proclaimed that a certain development was "coming in 1992", in (I think) 1994, and that wasn't too unusual at the time.

Only in the last few years do I get a sense that Montreal is coming back to life in the big-city sense. Condos in the central area are now becoming much more common, although still not anywhere near Toronto's level. The Lachine Canal and Griffintown stack up favourably to Toronto's Distillery District. Streetscapes and architecture in much of the city are, almost without exception, superior in Montreal, especially with a large number of relatively small squares and parkettes.

Montreal is an older city, and it shows, with a large number of buildings a century old or more, still fully in use. I don't get tired of the dense but low-rise character of so many districts in Montreal. The transit system is superior overall (although a lack of AC in summer is a killer as someone already mentioned). A friend in the suburbs of Montreal (West Island) says that there is a much more confident feeling in general among people he knows. Several of the economic indicators have improved hugely (possibly as the threat of sovereignty has receded, although that one is certainly open to debate).

 

[adma]

Not as frumpy as it used to be (thankfully), but the present degree of frumpiness will be as is until we kick the Fordites out. Rob Ford=Ontario, not Toronto.

I could go on arguing that Toronto's biggest drawback is that it is stuck with Ontario.

You're doing Ontario an injustice. Rob Ford's unworthy of Ontario. Now, as far as Conservative politicians go, Frost was worthy, Robarts was worthy, Davis was worthy...

 

[Torontovibe]

I have to admit, the last time I was in Montreal, just 2 years ago, I couldn't help but wonder why Montreal was so much more stylish and charming than Toronto. They seem to care more about the aesthetics and being unique. I wish Toronto was more original. We talk a lot about creativity but...

 

[CITY_LOVER]

I have to admit, the last time I was in Montreal, just 2 years ago, I couldn't help but wonder why Montreal was so much more stylish and charming than Toronto. They seem to care more about the aesthetics and being unique. I wish Toronto was more original. We talk a lot about creativity but...

I completely agree with this (and Observer Walt's post).

Regarding Montreal being more stylish and all, I feel it's so because in many respects, Montrealers tend to care more about non-financial and non-economic things than Torontonians, and it's reflected in how they carry themselves. Montreal's citizens, in my eyes, seem far more concerned about how they enjoy and live their lives instead of accumulating wealth and trying to outdo their neighbors (of course I'm making broad generalizations here but sometimes one has to!).

On a somewhat similar note, Quebec's social and cultural 'framework' also contributes to the difference between the two cities; what I mean here is that I personally find sensuality more of a focus than sexuality when it comes to human interaction and engagement, and therefore, things tend to be more 'refined' and 'classy' in Montreal than they would be in Toronto. The aggressive attitude and behaviour of many people make the joy of interacting with people less fulfilling here in Toronto than Montreal. I'll give one exaggerated and hypothetical example: in Montreal, it's more likely that one would meet someone at a nightclub or lounge and have a decent conversation, kiss each other in a soft and delightful way and then perhaps make love to each other later in the evening. In Toronto, people more likely will not talk to each other at all, and if they do, it'll be more intense but short, and it's likely that if there's a kiss at all, it'll be quick and off the couple will go on Gardiner to one's home, have sex (not make love) and most likely will never see each other again. (Perhaps more Montrealers have latin blood and therefore are more passionate when it comes intimacy than functionally-oriented and technically-minded Torontonians.)

Another thing - and I'm being very diplomatic and politically-neutral here - is that non-Anglophones and non-Francophones in Montreal are far more likely to integrate with the mainstream culture than people here in Toronto. I especially see this in large sections (so not all but just many parts) of the visible minority (non-white) communities. In Montreal, they seem to assimilate more than Toronto and since Montreal already leans more toward being people-oriented, it is reflected quite visibly. Toronto's diversity is great but at times if you're not into elements of others' home cultures and way-of-life, you're more likely to be uninterested in getting to know them than someone who has far more in common with the mainstream identity. Toronto is so diverse, that interestingly, it doesn't have a strong identity (unlike Montreal).

OK, so now I'm ready to be attacked by others who will either disagree or accuse me of being politically incorrect.

 

[Filip]

Being your first trip to Montreal, I understand you being a bit flustered by what the city has to offer. My first time there, a few months ago, I was enamoured by what to me felt like this charming package of a city. After going back 4 more times since, I have realized that under the surface, Montreal is in such a colossal mess that it makes all the problems we may have with Ford seem like a joke.

The subway system is both architecturally and geographically better. The stations are beautiful (Montreal does art with concrete) and it covers the central area very well, branching only marginally into the suburbs (although recent extensions and planned extensions will change this). Had Toronto received its subway around the same time (late 60s, early 70s) we'd have an entire subway made of Spadina-esque stations. Imagine Dupont, Eglinton West and St Clair West duplicated for our entire network. Functionally, it is a disaster. Frequencies are horrible (waited nearly 10 minutes on a Friday evening for a train to take me from McGill to Beaudry), the trains are narrow, poorly laid out and HOT! Jesus, it was worse than the NYC subway. Also, those must be the noisiest electric trains I've ever heard, it's like standing next to a GO locomotive. You cannot hear the person next to you shout over the noise these things make when coming or leaving a station.

The streets are better in select areas; the key word being select. The Quartier Internationale (where Square Victoria is) and some of their principal downtown high streets have impeccable paving, lighting and decoration. Go outside of those areas, to regular streets or downtown side streets and the result is terrible. Potholes everywhere, cracked sidewalks that could swallow a distracted pedestrian and graffiti, graffiti everywhere. Not the artsy kind, but tagging of the worst kind. I guess you could say Montreal is a city of extremes. Schizophrenic but it all comes together in a tolerable whole.

Architecture... Now this is my favourite part. Obviously Montreal wins HANDS DOWN in the historic department. The old city is beautiful, bit Main Street Disneyland-ish, but serves its purpose for gawking tourists. There are beautiful squares strewn about the city, and this I blame on history. Toronto was built on the English model, which is rather little parks instead of squares. Montreal had the continental model, which favoured squares over parks. I personally love Montreal's squares, but I also love Toronto's parks dotting the entire city. I do wish we had a formal square in the European model, not that garish mess at Dundas and Yonge. Can't have everything I guess. In the modern department, I have always been a fan of Montreal's PoMo towers (now there's a skyline dominated by that style). 1000 de la Gauchetiere is one of my favourite skyscrapers in the country, and the modernist Tour de la Bourse is a close second. Toronto clearly wins this category hands down - again, Toronto's economy and ambitious growth was trumping Montreal since the early 40s, it just took 30 more years to formally overtake it. One thing I did notice is the incredible amount of abandoned, dilapidated buildings all around Montreal's downtown. Some looked ready to collapse, completely covered in postering and plywood. Also a large amount of empty storefronts; something you don't see very often in Toronto. Street life was great, not as overbearing and busy as Toronto's, but that right mix that makes it both enjoyable and gives you the feeling of being in a big metropolis.

In terms of people, I can't tell the difference between an inner city Torontonian, and the Montrealers I encountered. Both seem into the same things, frequent similar establishments but just do it in a different language. That whole latin blood passion thing is a whole lot of bullcrap. Quebecers are purebred North Americans, and aside from speaking French, they couldn't behave more similarly to the rest of us if they tried. Montreal has an identity which is tied to the Quebec identity. That is primarily through Montreal's role as the metropolis of a unique cultural group with unique needs and a unique language (in our geographic context). Having their media, film industry, music etc, being local in focus makes Montreal seem more like a 'place' rather than a relay tower as Toronto is. There is nothing we can do about this, so no point in delving.

Culturally, both are similar in what is offered. Vibrant arts scene, music scene, both have good museums (although Toronto has the blockbuster museums Montreal lacks) and the collections of the ROM and AGO far outshine anything they have. Montreal has this vibrant local scene which Toronto is slowly building; again this is tied into their role as being the metropolis of a distinct group, unlike Toronto - however we are slowly building up our own local scene and as the years progress this rift will close.

Economically, you can tell Montreal is still struggling with numerous macroeconomic indicators. Corruption in the construction industry and municipally makes development a hassle for well-intentioned developers and an easy sell to hacks who put up some of the most monstrous things I have ever seen in Canada. There is far less 'wealth' in the city (if that makes any sense) but it definitely leaves an impression to someone from a city overflowing with it. The city seems to do its thing well, and they are satisfied in being a great second city (and a great Barcelona they would be). Something that truly explains Montreal's financial sector is affixed on the lobby of the Tour de la Bourse: "Bourse de Montreal, a division of the TMX Group". So many jobs and prestige was lost to Toronto that Montreal's financial sector definitely has that second fiddle syndrome. I find it ironic that BMO's legal headquarters on St. Jacques (legal, not operational as that is in Toronto) have the old M-Bar logo on top. The last time I saw that logo anywhere in Toronto must have been at least pre-2005.

To sum it up, I really like Montreal, well enough that I wouldn't find it an inconvenience to live there. I'd quite like it actually. But its relative stagnation in regards to Toronto's dynamic changes, both architecturally and economically, makes me think I would get bored fairly quickly. I like the quick changes in Toronto shaping it to be one of the major alpha cities of the planet. I just turned down a job in Montreal because I'd rather focus on finding the right job in Toronto, where I'd rather start a career, but if I could be reassigned to Montreal for a few years I would definitely not find it an imposition.

I'm glad you enjoyed your time in the city, but after going back a few times, you realize that your first impressions were like feeling silicon breasts. Amazing at first, but then you see the scars and the whole just doesn't seem right anymore!

 

[Bogtrotter]

Good post, I generally agree with your comments. I lived in Quebec from the mid-70's through to the late 90's, and the city was definitely not the best place to be, especially for an Anglo, looking for work in the 80's. I too am struck by the upswing of the city in my last few visits, there is quite a bit of construction and a renewed optimism among my friends there. I'm not sure if I'd go back myself (my spouse loves the city) but perhaps if the right job came along I would. As for the people, I still notice a difference in the way people dress (mostly the women), I know a lot of people will jump all over this and disagree, but I do notice a difference. Perhaps this had to do with the European Romanic roots of the majority in the city. I'm not so sure this doesn't extend to the city as a whole in terms of design..? Just a thought. Actually I read somewhere that Montreal has been designated a 'Design' city. Not sure what this means, but I take it that this awarded to the most appealing cities for urban design...perhaps someone else knows more about it?

 

[TheKingEast]

Montreal is and will always be better than Toronto and it has to do with the people living in the city. Toronto is probably the coldest, self absorbed city I've ever been to. Montreal has its faults, but people are much friendlier, more outgoing...a much more "chill" and relaxed atmosphere. Toronto is go-go-go, get out of my way, my time is more important than anyone else's.

Toronto is a nice city, but it's just far too cold and although it's "multicultural" I still see a lot of of division here. Not really a sense of community..but that's just my opinion.

 

[TonyV]

Montreal is and will always be better than Toronto and it has to do with the people living in the city. Toronto is probably the coldest, self absorbed city I've ever been to. Montreal has its faults, but people are much friendlier, more outgoing...a much more "chill" and relaxed atmosphere. Toronto is go-go-go, get out of my way, my time is more important than anyone else's.

Toronto is a nice city, but it's just far too cold and although it's "multicultural" I still see a lot of of division here. Not really a sense of community..but that's just my opinion.

I know both towns well. I disagree with you. I think when I weigh the negatives and positives of each (and that includes the people) they come out about equal. At this point in time I feel that Toronto holds the future, though, even with Ford the goof in control.