Toronto Massey Tower Condos | 206.95m | 60s | MOD Developments | Hariri Pontarini

Spire, it appears to the 'mods' of this forum are loathe to offend the MOD's of the development industry. I question whether ad dollars plays a factor.

Nope, I just take on posts that don't seem well thought out to me. If we mods were "loathe to offend", I imagine we'd just wipe the offending posts. We don't do that, however. So, if your best defence is to impugn your opponent…

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Don't like the floor plan? Don't buy the unit.

…but don't let that stop you from condescending to let us know that the rest of us are fools.

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I wasn't being condescending, I was responding to this comment:

Unfortunately, most people here are a lot more concerned with how a building looks than it functions.

I feel that good architecture combines aesthetics with function and that many of the new towers gracing our skyline are focused on the exterior appearance of the building with little regard to the function. These buildings are targeted to investors, many of whom will never live in them, they will be rented out - and these investors are not so concerned with function. This is perhaps not terrible in small numbers but the city is being overrun by them.

If the developers of Massey, and many other new developments, had reduced the number of units per floor, even just by one, they could have greatly increased the functionality of the units - and still made loads of money. But as most developers are focused on maximizing their return at all cost, this doesn't happen.
 
I think the remark about being condescending may have been directed at me. I try to bite my lip around here more these days, since it has become in many ways a mouthpiece for the development industry, which I am clearly frustrated by. That said, I think in this thread my comments are completely reasonable. Coming from an architecture and design standpoint, I am happy to stand by my comments and remain shocked at the defensiveness toward developers on here these days. I'm not a conspiracy theorist-- I am in the AEC industry and am increasingly familiar with how the process works, including developers. Developers can make it very difficult to make good architecture happen.

I have no illusions about the incredible profits developers can turn in this city. So it frustrates me when critique is at an all time low here, and applause at (most) every tower is constant. It's reckless.

I'll go back into hiding for awhile ;) keep my mouth shut and look at photo updates (which is where UT really shines)!
 
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I think the remark about being condescending may have been directed at me. I try to bite my lip around here more these days, since it has become in many ways a mouthpiece for the development industry, which I am clearly frustrated by. That said, I think in this thread my comments are completely reasonable. Coming from an architecture and design standpoint, I am happy to stand by my comments and remain shocked at the defensiveness toward developers on here these days. I'm not a conspiracy theorist-- I am in the AEC industry and am increasingly familiar with how the process works, including developers. Developers can make it very difficult to make good architecture happen.

I have no illusions about the incredible profits developers can turn in this city. So it frustrates me when critique is at an all time low here, and applause at (most) every tower is constant. It's reckless.

I'll go back into hiding for awhile ;)

I'm certainly defensive of a developer that pioneered the heritage preservation and restoration model at Five and continued it here at Massey Tower, where so many other developers would have opted to knock down 197 Yonge, to go with poor external (in addition to internal) design and to ignore the well-being of Massey Hall. There are plenty of developers and architects that deserve far more scorn in this city, and a cursory glance at the other threads in this forum shows that they're usually getting it from all corners.

Speaking more generally, I find it difficult to level criticism at the development industry for trying to maximize profit. They're companies like any other in any other industry - that's what they're supposed to do. If you want to criticise anyone for the number of units per floor, or small sizes of suites, blame the planning regime and the government that propagates it. You can call that being defensive of the development industry, but I'd call it a broader defence of properly regulated capitalism.
 
I hate to say it, but it's a mostly meaningless award. Look at who BILD and OHBA are. The OHBA, in fact, are known for lobbying to keep standards lower and costs down for homebuilders/developers. They're lobbyists. They represent the development INDUSTRY.

BILD and OHBA both represent development corporations. I'm not demonizing them, but just something to keep in mind. They have their own loyalties and priorities. You can call anything an "award" and it will sound impressive, but there is more beneath.

Hi Spire,

I guess I will chime in as the OHBA guy here on UT. I completely disagree with your suggestion that the awards are meaningless - in fact I would suggest the complete opposite is true and that within the industry the OHBA and BILD (and for that matter nationally the CHBA or internationally the NAHB) awards are the most meaningful awards there are out there for the industry. The awards have panels of judges and a robust criteria (I.e. Not "loyalties" to pick certain people) - but what makes them meaningful and important within the industry is that in this case MOD was judged by their peers in the industry and won against their peers. Within any industry people want to be judged the best by their peers and competitors and that why these awards mean so much to those that win them - they want to go up on stage and claim those awards that were judged by their peers/competitors in front of the hundreds of other industry people attending the awards galas.... So to them, within the industry, these awards are a big deal.

MOD basically cleaned up at both the BILD and OHBA awards last year... Also in the last couple of years Toronto developers have been taking home a sizable proportion of the NAHB international awards down in the US... So yeah I get that people want to be critical and we should always be striving to be better, but it does say something when our local product is also winning up to 1/4 of the categories at the NAHB awards in the states the past few years and even prior to the recession in the US.
 
I wouldn't say that the awards are meaningless either. But for me (and any purchaser of a new condo) the Tarion awards are the most important. If the actual unit owners have something to say after the building is completed, then this is their opportunity. I have actually received an apology letter from a developer who thought that was enough to merely apologize for all the unacceptable deficiencies. People really need to do their research...and Tarion is a great place to start. Don't trust people based on what they say, trust them on what they DO.
 
Hey Rivercity, I agree completely about the Tarion awards in terms of measuring quality of the product, lack of deficiencies and after-sales service - that is the award consumers should be paying a lot more attention to (Tridel won high-rise category in 2013 and Daniels in 2012). I was speaking to the broader sales and marketing as well as design categories in the BILD, OHBA, CHBA & NAHB awards.
 
I couldn't agree with you more, SP!RE.

I hate to say it, but it's a mostly meaningless award. Look at who BILD and OHBA are. The OHBA, in fact, are known for lobbying to keep standards lower and costs down for homebuilders/developers. They're lobbyists. They represent the development INDUSTRY.

BILD and OHBA both represent development corporations. I'm not demonizing them, but just something to keep in mind. They have their own loyalties and priorities. You can call anything an "award" and it will sound impressive, but there is more beneath it.

These industry awards really have little merit and it's often driven by politics, self promotion and marketing, and run by their own industry.
The boards of BILD and OHBA consists of presidents and CEOs of development companies. Gary Switzer co-chairs BILD for which they have won a few awards.
Likewise there are a lot of people from the real estate and development industry on Urban Toronto, so you will get a lot of people here applauding or promoting certain projects.

These model suites are fictional vignettes that are more fashion than function. 20 or 30 years from now we will look back at these overly done model suites and cringe and think they are the most ridiculous designs on earth.

There are no awards or consumer reports that are run by independent groups which really looks at a condo development after it is completed and occupied, or at least ones that are well known to the public. That would really paint the real picture on how well a building is built and functions. Fancy brochures full of sexy computer generated renderings and overly trendy decorated model suites are bait and these buyers don't ask questions like, How long do I have to wait for an elevator? Where can my visitors park their car? Can I operate my AC in the winter or heat in the summer? Where can I store my vacuum and sports equipment? These things really matter when you are living in these massive condo towers.
I lived in various condos in my days and sat on a few condo boards so I have to know these details that most people don't even think about. Developers are in the business of selling and they don't really care much as they should on how a condo performs or functions a year, 5-years or 20-years from now. Massey Tower was really lucky that it sold at the very height of the condo market and sold these mediocre units briskly for top dollar.
I would love to see a publication that examines these new condo developments beyond the marketing material, which in the legal fine print is not a promise of what the develop will actually look like, and studies things that are boring and banal to most people like the mechanical systems, material durability, is there enough lighting or ventilation, how is security dealt with, how long or how much effort is required to get to your unit from the street or parking garage, etc. Picture something like the Consumer Reports of residential developments.

I would love to look into the future and when all 700 of these units are occupied and see how people deal with everyday life living in this tall skyscraper on a postage stamp sized property in a very busy and congested urban street. How are the residents supposed to move in and out with a large moving truck or a couple cars? How much effort and wait to get their car from the automated parking system? How's the elevator traffic when heading out to work in the morning? Where are the storage lockers and is it easily accessible?
So many questions that the sales representatives of this development don't have an answer.

There are so many compromises and corners cut these days which won't be evident 5 years from now when the building is built, and I am not just talking about this project but most condo projects in and around Toronto.
 
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There are no awards or consumer reports that are run by independent groups which really looks at a condo development after it is completed and occupied, or at least ones that are well known to the public.

The answer is TARION. It's well known to any new home purchaser.
 
There are also the PUG Awards, the OAA Awards, the Governor-General's Awards and the City of Toronto Urban Design Awards. Many of these awards go to buildings that have won BILD awards, notwithstanding the sentiment from some voices on this forum that the validity of the BILD awards are questionable. In fact, a few years ago, not only did 18 Yorkville win the top award from the PUG's, it also won awards from BILD, the City of Toronto (for best Highrise and Midrise building), as well as the top award from Tarion.
 
I wouldn't say that the awards are meaningless either. But for me (and any purchaser of a new condo) the Tarion awards are the most important. If the actual unit owners have something to say after the building is completed, then this is their opportunity. I have actually received an apology letter from a developer who thought that was enough to merely apologize for all the unacceptable deficiencies. People really need to do their research...and Tarion is a great place to start. Don't trust people based on what they say, trust them on what they DO.

Couldn't agree more.

I still don't think there's enough information out there, though. I don't think the information through Tarion is good enough. I should be able to easily look up a particular project's buyer feedback. This information should be readily available.
 
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I could agree with you more, SP!RE.



These industry awards really have little merit and it's often driven by politics, self promotion and marketing, and run by their own industry.
The boards of BILD and OHBA consists of presidents and CEOs of development companies. Gary Switzer co-chairs BILD for which they have won a few awards.
Likewise there are a lot of people from the real estate and development industry on Urban Toronto, so you will get a lot of people here applauding or promoting certain projects.

These model suites are fictional vignettes that are more fashion than function. 20 or 30 years from now we will look back at these overly done model suites and cringe and think they are the most ridiculous designs on earth.

There are no awards or consumer reports that are run by independent groups which really looks at a condo development after it is completed and occupied, or at least ones that are well known to the public. That would really paint the real picture on how well a building is built and functions. Fancy brochures full of sexy computer generated renderings and overly trendy decorated model suites are bait and these buyers don't ask questions like, How long do I have to wait for an elevator? Where can my visitors park their car? Can I operate my AC in the winter or heat in the summer? Where can I store my vacuum and sports equipment? These things really matter when you are living in these massive condo towers.
I lived in various condos in my days and sat on a few condo boards so I have to know these details that most people don't even think about. Developers are in the business of selling and they don't really care much as they should on how a condo performs or functions a year, 5-years or 20-years from now. Massey Tower was really lucky that it sold at the very height of the condo market and sold these mediocre units briskly for top dollar.
I would love to see a publication that examines these new condo developments beyond the marketing material, which in the legal fine print is not a promise of what the develop will actually look like, and studies things that are boring and banal to most people like the mechanical systems, material durability, is there enough lighting or ventilation, how is security dealt with, how long or how much effort is required to get to your unit from the street or parking garage, etc. Picture something like the Consumer Reports of residential developments.

I would love to look into the future and when all 700 of these units are occupied and see how people deal with everyday life living in this tall skyscraper on a postage stamp sized property in a very busy and congested urban street. How are the residents supposed to move in and out with a large moving truck or a couple cars? How much effort and wait to get their car from the automated parking system? How's the elevator traffic when heading out to work in the morning? Where are the storage lockers and is it easily accessible?
So many questions that the sales representatives of this development don't have an answer.

There are so many compromises and corners cut these days which won't be evident 5 years from now when the building is built, and I am not just talking about this project but most condo projects in and around Toronto.

Good points. I imagine anyone who wanted to put something together like this would piss off a lot of developers. if it keeps developers honest then I'm all for it.
 
metroTO, you're right that the owners of 205 should have done something with their property earlier - either buying adjacent properties, or just selling theirs. thecharioteer above you is right; as the interior of 205 is protected as is its exterior, making it virtually impossible to redevelop, so it would have had to be combined with an adjacent property to make a go of it. Stuck to some cobweb in my brain is a memory of having heard way-back-when that MOD offered to purchase the property from them, but they were not interested. They will have a harder time realizing a return on their investment in the property now… unless they do some resoration/renovation within it that protects the interior while making it work for today. Maybe it could be retrofitted as one helluva restaurant, or a store?

Why they have let it sit though, one can speculate…

We now have to worry about the possibility of "demolition by neglect" if 205 deteriorates too far. Without a remedy to expropriate from the owners of such neglected but designated and supposedly protected properties, the owners of 205 may just be sitting back waiting for it to fall in, with eventual plans to redevelop. I would hate to see it come to that; to me that would equal a criminal intent.

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An interesting note from another thread:

The City's tax arrears listing ( see http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/gm/bgrd/backgroundfile-49915.pdf ) shows that 205 Yonge owes lots of taxes - this seems to be the northern of the two old bank buildings north of Queen Street (the one with the Irish flag)

205 Yonge Street
Owner: Midas Investment Corporation
Mailing Address:
75 Courtneypark Drive, Unit 1
Mississauga, ON L5W 0E3
Property classification: Commercial
OUTSTANDING: $ 576,009.24 Balance represents unpaid 2008 to 2012 interim taxes, penalties and water charges. On October 12, 2011
Revenue Services registered a Tax Arrears Certificate against title to the subject property.

Potentially Mr. John Cavannah may not be doing so well (especially considering what the world economy went through a couple of years ago). Maybe it's a stalling attempt to get MOD to pick up 205 Yonge Street as well? It's already noted that with the development of the Massey Tower, future development potential is severely limited on this site. I would also imagine that he may not have the resources and financing available to get this lot developed in whatever form it needs to be to accomodate retail or maybe a small mid-rise tower.
 

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