Toronto Lower Simcoe Ramp | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto

I heard about a very interesting shortcut recently. Apparently when you're in the far right lane on Harbour at Yonge, the one that's marked for access to Queen's Quay, there's actually not a sign prohibiting left turns--you can stay in the far right lane, wait at the stop sign, and make a left onto northbound Yonge.

Yes. Or make a right off the ramp to Southbound Bay, Left at Queens Quay, Left at Yonge heading North.
 
That Simcoe-Lake Shore/Harbour intersection is going to be even worse for pedestrians... Nice.

We should really be building more pedestrian overpasses, like at the major intersections in Vegas. Although our pedestrian volumes may not really be high enough to warrant those.
 
We should really be building more pedestrian overpasses, like at the major intersections in Vegas. Although our pedestrian volumes may not really be high enough to warrant those.

I believe Las Vegas has a horrendous record when it comes to pedestrian deaths, but I agree that basically that whole area is atrocious from a pedestrian standpoint, and I'm incredulous that they're not taking this opportunity to more carefully consider the experience. I was recently in both Shanghai and Hong Kong, and they have some interesting (for better or worse) elevated pedestrian systems around high vehicular traffic areas; I'd love to see some of that type of thinking (in a non-PATH context) in Toronto, especially in this area.

I believe you're referring to something like the below image in the case of LV?

upload_2016-4-7_10-45-33.png

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-g...6-pedestrian-bridge-Las-Vegas-stock-photo.jpg

HK:

Screen Shot 2016-04-07 at 10.48.21 AM.png

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/DHJ5AM/ped...ion-of-two-roads-chung-wan-central-DHJ5AM.jpg

Shanghai:
Screen Shot 2016-04-07 at 10.49.11 AM.png

http://whenonearth.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/shanghai-china-lujiazui-bridge-woe1.jpg

Screen Shot 2016-04-07 at 10.49.50 AM.png

http://whenonearth.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/hovenring-eindhoven-bridge-woe1.jpg
 

Attachments

  • upload_2016-4-7_10-45-33.png
    upload_2016-4-7_10-45-33.png
    463.1 KB · Views: 1,527
  • Screen Shot 2016-04-07 at 10.48.21 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2016-04-07 at 10.48.21 AM.png
    1.2 MB · Views: 1,514
  • Screen Shot 2016-04-07 at 10.49.11 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2016-04-07 at 10.49.11 AM.png
    1.8 MB · Views: 1,534
  • Screen Shot 2016-04-07 at 10.49.50 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2016-04-07 at 10.49.50 AM.png
    1.4 MB · Views: 1,581
I believe Las Vegas has a horrendous record when it comes to pedestrian deaths, but I agree that basically that whole area is atrocious from a pedestrian standpoint, and I'm incredulous that they're not taking this opportunity to more carefully consider the experience. I was recently in both Shanghai and Hong Kong, and they have some interesting (for better or worse) elevated pedestrian systems around high vehicular traffic areas; I'd love to see some of that type of thinking (in a non-PATH context) in Toronto, especially in this area.

I believe you're referring to something like the below image in the case of LV?

I think it's a great idea. However, Toronto does a really bad job at this. The goal is to completely separate pedestrians and traffic to allow a more consistent flow of both (that's what all the examples above do). For some reason Toronto would instead build both an overpass and still allow pedestrians to cross at grade completely negating any benefits (e.g. Lakeshore near Sunnyside, CNE to Ontario Place)

Let's make the ones we have work and then look at others.

I would also suggest that Toronto should insist on any privately built overpasses/underpasses must be open to the public (Mount Pleasant just north of Bloor)
 
We should really be building more pedestrian overpasses, like at the major intersections in Vegas. Although our pedestrian volumes may not really be high enough to warrant those.

Look at all the roads in the above photos. All of them are really wide and terrible for pedestrians, probably worse than any street I can think of in downtown Toronto. But at the same time there is a high volume of pedestrians. So no wonder these cities have built overpasses over them. It doesn't mean that Toronto needs them too.
 
Look at all the roads in the above photos. All of them are really wide and terrible for pedestrians, probably worse than any street I can think of in downtown Toronto. But at the same time there is a high volume of pedestrians. So no wonder these cities have built overpasses over them. It doesn't mean that Toronto needs them too.

Some of what you say is simply untrue.

First, one of the images above features a road that is, at its maximum width, two lanes in each direction, not including turn lanes. Fully most of the major roads in Toronto are exactly that width and many are wider.

Second, completely regardless of street width or number of lanes, the stretch of road in question on this thread is, I would say, objectively as hazardous and unwelcoming to pedestrians as any of the examples in the images above, if not more so. It's simply not a question of opinion that the York-Bay-Yonge-Lower Simcoe offramp is a terrible pedestrian environment. And, as others on this thread have suggested, there doesn't seem to be much in the new plans to ameliorate that situation.

Third, it's not logical to conclude that Shanghai or Hong Kong opted to build that pedestrian infrastructure in response to existing pedestrian demand. What's more likely is that those intersections were identified as having especially poor pedestrian experiences and so were candidates for improvements—much like is being discussed on this thread for this particular intersection. Assuming that pedestrians aren't traversing an area because they just don't want to is a terrible urban design principle. In most cases, as we see similarly with inadequate cycling infrastructure, proper construction of pedestrian- or cycle-friendly infrastructure must precede higher usage of it.

In general, of course, simply copying urban design principles applied to nearly any situation in another city or country for use in our own city is a bad idea. That's not what I'm suggesting—instead, I am presenting four solutions to similar problems used in other cities. Looking to see how problems have been solved elsewhere is essential.
 
Look at all the roads in the above photos. All of them are really wide and terrible for pedestrians, probably worse than any street I can think of in downtown Toronto. But at the same time there is a high volume of pedestrians. So no wonder these cities have built overpasses over them. It doesn't mean that Toronto needs them too.
Winnipeg's Portage and Main is almost identical to those intersections, but the pedestrian circle is underground. Barriers stop surface-level pedestrian crossings.

A proper roll-out of +15 PATH in the South-of-Southcore region would go a long way to separating pedestrians and traffic.
 
Some of what you say is simply untrue.

First, one of the images above features a road that is, at its maximum width, two lanes in each direction, not including turn lanes. Fully most of the major roads in Toronto are exactly that width and many are wider.

Second, completely regardless of street width or number of lanes, the stretch of road in question on this thread is, I would say, objectively as hazardous and unwelcoming to pedestrians as any of the examples in the images above, if not more so. It's simply not a question of opinion that the York-Bay-Yonge-Lower Simcoe offramp is a terrible pedestrian environment. And, as others on this thread have suggested, there doesn't seem to be much in the new plans to ameliorate that situation.

Third, it's not logical to conclude that Shanghai or Hong Kong opted to build that pedestrian infrastructure in response to existing pedestrian demand. What's more likely is that those intersections were identified as having especially poor pedestrian experiences and so were candidates for improvements—much like is being discussed on this thread for this particular intersection. Assuming that pedestrians aren't traversing an area because they just don't want to is a terrible urban design principle. In most cases, as we see similarly with inadequate cycling infrastructure, proper construction of pedestrian- or cycle-friendly infrastructure must precede higher usage of it.

In general, of course, simply copying urban design principles applied to nearly any situation in another city or country for use in our own city is a bad idea. That's not what I'm suggesting—instead, I am presenting four solutions to similar problems used in other cities. Looking to see how problems have been solved elsewhere is essential.

I've been down to Yonge and Queens Quay a few times now from King & Bay during business hours. Even with the Union reno's underway the Sun Life pedestrian bridge is 2 minutes shorter than going along Yonge St (and an added benefit is that I don't suck in all the tailpipe fumes). And I'm guessing I can shave another minute or two off once Union is reopened.

Yonge's stop lights are just too long which kills you for walking.

We need more of these overpasses!
 
Grascan have moved their construction equipment into place, and work has begun below the Yonge-York-Bay off-ramps!

As seen from the southeast corner of Roundhouse Park above Lower Simcoe and Lake Shore:
DSC06408.jpg

DSC06410.jpg


As seen from Lower Simcoe Street:
DSC06426.jpg
DSC06428.jpg


And finally, as seen from the Rees Street end:
DSC06423.jpg

DSC06423 - Version 2.jpg


The bike trail is closed through this area now.

42
 

Attachments

  • DSC06408.jpg
    DSC06408.jpg
    288.8 KB · Views: 1,160
  • DSC06410.jpg
    DSC06410.jpg
    332.2 KB · Views: 1,197
  • DSC06423.jpg
    DSC06423.jpg
    327.1 KB · Views: 1,198
  • DSC06426.jpg
    DSC06426.jpg
    356.4 KB · Views: 1,229
  • DSC06428.jpg
    DSC06428.jpg
    331.7 KB · Views: 1,179
  • DSC06423 - Version 2.jpg
    DSC06423 - Version 2.jpg
    277.7 KB · Views: 1,190
Grascan have moved their construction equipment into place, and work has begun below the Yonge-York-Bay off-ramps!

As seen from the southeast corner of Roundhouse Park above Lower Simcoe and Lake Shore:
View attachment 85423
View attachment 85424

As seen from Lower Simcoe Street: View attachment 85426 View attachment 85427

And finally, as seen from the Rees Street end:
View attachment 85425
View attachment 85428

The bike trail is closed through this area now.

42

I can not possibly like this enough!

While there are many more important things to do for this City and this world, this is one I've been looking forward to for awhile!
 

Top