Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

[AlvinofDiaspar]

From the Star:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ovie-industry-is-short-sighted-hume-hume.html

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

From the Star:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ovie-industry-is-short-sighted-hume-hume.html

AoD

Yeah, read that early this morning. But there's also another factor Hume didn't mention which is completely germane to long-term planning, even if 'film' could/should be accommodated down there (and don't be misled by the present Pinewood success). It's not going to last. Trust me, discussed this at length with a known editor last night. Toronto gets intoxicated with the very juice it despises when it comes from Hollywood. (Just witness the fawning hype over TIFF, and look at the complete charade it's become)

Clarification: Toronto will witness a continuation of the movie industry, but not on the scale it is at present. It's crazy busy right now, but there's no way to go but down. There's too many lower cost locales for production, and even post production Toronto has more facilities than it needs, and oversupply will just undercut the present investments.

 

[jackass42]

Yeah, read that early this morning. But there's also another factor Hume didn't mention which is completely germane to long-term planning, even if 'film' could/should be accommodated down there (and don't be misled by the present Pinewood success). It's not going to last. Trust me, discussed this at length with a known editor last night. Toronto gets intoxicated with the very juice it despises when it comes from Hollywood. (Just witness the fawning hype over TIFF, and look at the complete charade it's become)

Clarification: Toronto will witness a continuation of the movie industry, but not on the scale it is at present. It's crazy busy right now, but there's no way to go but down. There's too many lower cost locales for production, and even post production Toronto has more facilities than it needs, and oversupply will just undercut the present investments.

The industry is built on a system of tax credits and federal Canadian Content regulations. As long as these exist, the film industry will continue to exist here. Oh and let's not forget their extensive lobbying power - that's the only reason this moronic idea is on the table at all. Toronto has the potential to do something really great with the Port Lands but I'm not sure if the circus that is city hall has the ability to see that.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The industry is built on a system of tax credits and federal Canadian Content regulations. As long as these exist, the film industry will continue to exist here. Oh and let's not forget their extensive lobbying power - that's the only reason this moronic idea is on the table at all. Toronto has the potential to do something really great with the Port Lands but I'm not sure if the circus that is city hall has the ability to see that.

The question is moving forward does it make sense to have low-intensity uses so close to the core - or whether it will be dispersed into the inner burbs (e.g. Kipling expansion).

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

The industry is built on a system of tax credits and federal Canadian Content regulations. As long as these exist, the film industry will continue to exist here. Oh and let's not forget their extensive lobbying power - that's the only reason this moronic idea is on the table at all. Toronto has the potential to do something really great with the Port Lands but I'm not sure if the circus that is city hall has the ability to see that.

Agreed with all you points...all of that was in my discussion yesterday with said editor (I'm not going to drop names, but he's well established, mostly in TV series, two of which have sold in over thirty countries) but I also know a lot of production crew, dressers, carpenters, etc...and the consensus is that 'it's Toronto's to lose'. They're shooting in places like Sudbury and North Bay for gosh-sakes, costs are so much lower. Hamilton, normally outside the travel bonus boundary, is now included in the Toronto one, and is taking a large amount of production. Lots of space, interesting location, lower costs.

There's only so much post-production support needed for even the present crush in Toronto, and it's already built.

 

[steveintoronto]

The question is moving forward does it make sense to have low-intensity uses so close to the core - or whether it will be dispersed into the inner burbs (e.g. Kipling expansion).

AoD

I have serious questions about how the Portlands are to proceed, as is well-known in this forum. And I can't think of much more that's indicative in terms of *squandering* the opportunity for *sustained and effective* land-use than Council being starry eyed from the bright lights.

Someone's whispered in Council's ear, and the term 'seduction of the screen' comes to mind. Coming to a theatre on the lake near you...Even if this does make sense, then someone had better get their story straight on how the plot is supposed to unfold. Too many cooks in the directors' kitchen it seems.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Agreed with all you points...all of that was in my discussion yesterday with said editor (I'm not going to drop names, but he's well established, mostly in TV series, two of which have sold in over thirty countries) but I also know a lot of production crew, dressers, carpenters, etc...and the consensus is that 'it's Toronto's to lose'. They're shooting in places like Sudbury and North Bay for gosh-sakes, costs are so much lower. Hamilton, normally outside the travel bonus boundary, is now included in the Toronto one, and is taking a large amount of production. Lots of space, interesting location, lower costs.

There's only so much post-production support needed for even the present crush in Toronto, and it's already built.

Toronto is already a prominent filming location, it's a known joke in Hollywood that it is a cheap version of New York streetscape (they just blurt it out in Season 2 of Bojack Horseman). While I'm not a technical film expert, it seems to me that Port Lands (and any other suitable employment district) are value-added to production; it's convenient to do your post-filming activities in the same city. Tax credits, content requirements and lobbying sure help, but I doubt anyone could characterize those forces as stabilizing an industry on stilts.

All it all, it's good business and good jobs that add to the economy. Those that work in the industry will need a place to shop and live, and I'm sure they'd love to make the Port Lands that place. I find it hard to give Hume too much weight when he waxes on like this, but if there's concern that too much 'valuable' land is being handed over to allow movie studios, then by all means, don't let them sprawl out so much. I know they need a minimum amount of space for some functions, but generally, film studios should be forced to be densify like the rest of the other land uses in the area. This might mean they need to innovate to fit their operations on a smaller lot, or get out of town.

But again, with the inherent location value the Port Lands provides, I don't buy the notion that boxing them in a bit will make them leave en mass. And if it does, I'm sure there will be plenty of other employers in other sectors lined up behind them.

 

[steveintoronto]

Excellent dialog, albeit Pinewood per-se isn't the problem, it's what the *kow-towing* of City Hall is indicative of. First your points:

Those that work in the industry will need a place to shop and live, and I'm sure they'd love to make the Port Lands that place.

Actually not. Almost all of the *crew*!!! (and many of the actors) are pretty down-to-earth persons, and eschew hoity-toity places. There's irony in that I've met so many persons in the biz, including my erstwhile cycling partner (got him out again this year for a couple of trips he'd never done before during a break in production due to...lol...waiting for funding from some gov't agency) down in the Portlands! Jamming, on Polson.We met down there three decades back. A lot of film crew are also players.

These are people that drive pick-up trucks and vans, sensible cars.

it's convenient to do your post-filming activities in the same city.

Only marginally so. Most post-production is done in TO, no matter where it's shot in Ontario. Why? Because of all the established post facilities in TO. I had no idea there were so many until dropping in on friends at them. Many are in downtown refurbished red-bricks, some out Kipling way, all over.

But again, with the inherent location value the Port Lands provides, I don't buy the notion that boxing them in a bit will make them leave en mass.

And that's the nub of where this discussion should go.

I'm sure there will be plenty of other employers in other sectors lined up behind them.

And I think this is crucial, because at the end of the day, Pinewood isn't concerned so much on the value of producing film from that location. They're investing in the *Location*! Land value, how can you go wrong? City Hall and the gov't cadres galore bending over backwards to facilitate entry. Weinstein plus. Until it hits the press, then "Oh, we had no idea"...

Take a look at this pic and article (pardon my choice of source, but it was the first one that showed that made the point so concisely)(pic, due to the angle taken, does overemphasize the context)

Pinewood film studios to expand facilities in Toronto's Port Lands
February 25, 2016/ Dean Seguin
Photo: Pinewood Toronto Studios

Photo: Pinewood Toronto Studios

Efforts to revitalize the Port Lands just got a major boost with the announcement of a new 135,000 square foot film and television support facility for Pinewood Toronto Studios.

This massive development will add to its existing 300,000 square foot purpose-built studio campus on the Toronto waterfront. Toronto Port Lands Company and Pinewood Toronto Studios will enter into a long-term lease for an additional 1.75 acres of land for the development of space to support Toronto’s thriving film and television sector.

Many big-budget movies and TV shows are shot at Pinewood, including Pacific Rim, Total Recall and the highly-anticipated Suicide Squad.

This is the next step towards Pinewood's plans to double its current size to eventually grow to 600,000 square feet.

Less than three kilometres from the downtown core on the eastern waterfront, Pinewood's facilities sit on approximately 14 acres of land, with options to expand to 30 acres. The expansion includes upgrades to studios, spaces for media and innovation, plus hotels, retail and green spaces.

http://www.goodhood.ca/whats-good/pinewood-film-studios-to-expand-facilities-in-torontos-port-lands

I took heat in this string some months back for railing about how much 'industrial space' is still zoned for down on the lands. That dialog was stymied by my 'pizzing on people's dreams' according to some.

I'd say the dialog was not only apt, it's starting to boil over. Again, Torontonians are being fed a line they so willingly swallow. I'm sure there's more to come on this discussion...

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Reports in question - from the Oct 2 City Council:

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.ED23.7

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

Reports in question - from the Oct 2 City Council:

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.ED23.7

AoD

From http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2017/ed/bgrd/backgroundfile-106644.pdf as attached:
[...]
These plans and policies support the City’s goals of supporting the area’s current and future employment activity, including for studio and associated
uses, while also enabling the development of both vibrant new communities in appropriate locations and employment clusters. In the context of the most recently proposed plans the flexibility that larger studio complexes would have for future development and operation will become somewhat more limited. At the same time, market speculation will also increase the pressure on both potential and existing studio sites, if not sufficiently protected from other land uses.[...]

Ya think?

I've only just glanced at this now, will have more time later...but I'd say the Kool-aid's working...

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I am not overly concerned either way - most of the properties are in South of Eastern, with only the Pinewood lands in the actual Portlands area which does not affect Don River re-routing.

No Kool-Aid's, lots of freakouts and posturing though.

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

The more I read, the more concerned I get over this. How many sides of the mouth does the City have?

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2017/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-107602.pdf

"City Council authorize a loan
to TPLC for the acquisition of the
lands described in the
confidential attachments to this report"

It's not fully clear first glance as to whom the land is intended for....but take a guess!

So the City is underwriting loans to acquire land to provide preferential status for a selected tenant, all the time claiming they need funding from other levels of government to fully acquire their interest in the Port Lands?

Edit to Add:

Here's some background:

February 27, 2016
[...]
Pinewood Toronto Studios plans to lease additional land from its landlord, the Toronto Port Lands Co., to build a 135,000-square-foot, “purpose-built” film and TV studio.

The new studio should be open for business by 2018.

“We’ll be able to handle increased levels of production activity in Toronto, so it benefits crews and the whole industry,” said studio chairman Paul Bronfman.

The new studio will be built from scratch and is different than retrofitting an existing warehouse to shoot movies, Bronfman said.
[...]
The expansion has an estimated price tag of “several” million dollars, Bronfman said.

Toronto Port Lands has already approved the expansion, but city council still has to debate giving it the green light later this year. [...]

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/02/27/tos-pinewood-studios-is-expanding

From reading some of the attached reports to the City reference, Pinewood (Bronfman) was asking for a "35 year lease" to allow his investment to pay off. There's also references in the reports to (gist) "closing off public access between lots to allow a greater assemblage of a singular land holding". I'll quote and reference later.

Gosh, when did the City ever go wrong signing over something like that?

Edit to Add:

Someone just emled me a list of post production houses in Toronto:
http://www.post-in-toronto.on.ca/leveltwo.cgi?category=post

Chuck's Toronto Film & Video Directory

(1305 companies listed as of Apr 1 2017)

 

[Lenser]

I'm admittedly biased. I'm working at Pinewood currently. And we do have tax incentives in Ontario, yes. A good thing it is, too, considering how other would-be industry titans offer the same dangling goods in order to bring a ton of business their way.

Television productions tend to offer good paying jobs. Big on knowledge-based and technical positions. Lots of spinoff benefits. Lots of ancillary businesses profiting from the proximity of your 777 Kiplings, your Pinewoods. Caterers, material suppliers, service bureaus, special effects houses, etc. Does it all have to be located in the Portlands? Nope, it does not. Plenty of places in the GTA might also serve as prime production studio and office space.

But let's also take a moment to recognize that the land down in the Portlands is primarily brownfield in nature. No one's going to be moving in there anytime soon. It's a bit of a toxic soup, requiring a lot of money in soil remediation and stabilization before any amount of residential building could take place. Why is the Hearn still a slowly-crumbling shell? Because its many years of operation left a bleak legacy in the soil it squats on. It's a mistake to think of the Portlands as some kind of idyllic nature preserve; it was manufactured infill, primarily for industrial purposes. The idea is to one day rectify that, make it more appealing to Toronto on any number of levels. Fine, but that will take some major, sustained commitment.

I'm sure it's going to happen sometime down the road, though. I haven't read the details on the timetable - two, maybe three decades would be my guess. Perhaps sooner. Meanwhile, there's a mix of employment infrastructure there, right now. Will the mix change? Doubtless. Should it? Yes. The place should be offering something for all Torontonians. It has tremendous potential. Anyone who's ever been down there knows it. It's uncanny how close this vast chunk of land is to the city's core. It's right on the water. That's extraordinary.

Christopher Hume thinks an opportunity is being squandered. He and I have agreed on many things over the years, but not on what to do with the Portlands. First off, the place is very large. There's room for all sorts of activities down there. You can naturalize the mouth of the Don and gussy things up along Cherry Street, but elsewhere there remains marinas and cement production and, yes, film and television activity. I just don't see it as an either/or proposition. I'm certainly not privy to what Pinewood's execs are thinking but I'm guessing they want to keep their Toronto operations viable for a couple more decades at the very least. Of course they're going to angle for the best possible deal. That's the nature of the beast.

I hope they do expand again, if only for myself and my many colleagues who have, over the years, worked in film and television production here in the east end. Yet perhaps the deal on the table for Pinewood is too sweet.... maybe it ought to be reexamined. I'd agree with Hume that doling out sweetheart deals to any particular party in the Portlands is not necessarily a wise thing.

I just see a lot of grey in those brownfields.

 

[steveintoronto]

[...]
But let's also take a moment to recognize that the land down in the Portlands is primarily brownfield in nature. No one's going to be moving in there anytime soon. It's a bit of a toxic soup, requiring a lot of money in soil remediation and stabilization before any amount of residential building could take place. Why is the Hearn still a slowly-crumbling shell? Because its many years of operation left a bleak legacy in the soil it squats on. It's a mistake to think of the Portlands as some kind of idyllic nature preserve; it was manufactured infill, primarily for industrial purposes. The idea is to one day rectify that, make it more appealing to Toronto on any number of levels. Fine, but that will take some major, sustained commitment.[...]

Excellent post! Let me make clear, as much as it may appear I and others may be ranting against Pinewood (and ironically the tax benefits are itemized and discussed in the City's commissioned reports), I agree fully with you on the glacial pace of action on cleaning up the massive toxic sponge of the Port Lands.

You see it, I see it, have for decades, and saw the many attempts at soil remediation over those decades. It was a sad joke. And again, ironically, the very City reports that detail the need to underwrite Toronto Port Lands Co to buy land to lease to Pinewood specifically cite the degree of contaminants and the cost of clean-up as a justification (of sorts) to 'nudge' the deal.

The point is not against Pinewood (albeit Bronfman et al are, understandably so, overstating the need for post production on site) but against the City stating two completely opposing stances on the future of that land.

I'm now led to believe that the fantastic visions of the entire Port Lands being all happy and living and clean only count for the western end. It's very odd, since rereading a lot of the promo, including the http://www.portlandsconsultation.ca/ site, it's clear that the entire port lands are included (save for the lower Leslie Spit). Or were supposed to be.

The point is, the 'vision' and the reality are two different things. I absolutely agree: Until the mess is cleaned up, the City is lucky to get any kind of long-term tenant down there save for those that are too filthy to put anywhere else.

THAT is Hume's point. I meticulously re-read his prior articles on the port lands, last one was July IIRC. He states what you do, from another vector, however. He wonders how the Feds and Province got even this far with a City Hall that can only think Expressways and Tax-Cuts. Oh yes, and a subway to STC. Speaking of 'realists'...

But worry not! It will all be bliss and blue-skies if we do enough drugs to climb into the renderings Waterfront Toronto keeps presenting.

For myself? Forget all the Lucy in the Skies and just build the Don flood remediation. Then they can start selling the fantastic dreams. Many seem gullible enough to believe them...meantime there's a MASSIVE clean-up operation to be done, and digging the new alignment is only going to aggravate that to a degree they don't want you to even think about. They don't talk about the mechanics of coffer dams, seepage and leakage, and the massive mess of the barges carrying the sludge to God knows where. (Hamilton?) Flood Remediation has to happen. Until it does, and I still see absolutely no sign of it starting, hype to the contrary, leaseholds should be given for clean industry to locate there. Including Pinewood. I do have quibbles about the financing, but that's another matter.

But first the City better get their story straight. Whatever it is....What's being sold to Johnny Hockeygame and what's being sold to Dancing Developers has a tear in the space-time continuum....appearing on the "largest sound-stage in North America"....the Port Lands.

 

[Lenser]

It wasn't all that long ago that there were extensive petrochemical storage works right at Commissioner and Cherry, too. Not to mention the detergent place that just got demoed in recent years over by Carlaw and Commish. I'm sure they've left traces of their presence in the soil - how could they not?

And then there are the other existing operations I forgot to mention - the waste transfer station and recycling depot on Commish, and the considerable Canada Post operations as well. There's lots of employment and industry already in place in the Portlands.

But yes - the flood remediation alone will be a huge job. That's one of the compelling reasons why I think the build-out of the entire area is going to stretch over decades.