Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

This area's importance to Toronto in the form of industrial port lands is extremely minimal and there's no sign of that changing in the foreseeable future. Yes, there's lots of other land that can be developed, but this is waterfront property, which means higher land values and more tax revenue for the City to reap, which benefits everyone. The fact that it's owned and controlled by an arm's-length government agency also provided unique planning opportunities that aren't normally available elsewhere (at least not on this scale). Allowing this land to remain a languishing, polluted industrial wasteland in anticipation of some kind of romanticized industrial resurgence that will probably never happen frankly does not make a lot of sense.
 
Normally...

Northern Magus said:
Now now, they're simply questioning the man's decisions. You know, questioning, tkip. I seem to recall you think that's perfectly ok.

Or are you starting to turn into a full-time Ford advocate?
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I'm not a Ford advocate because I love the man. He has flaws but there is a form of bullying going on here and elsewhere towards Ford.

I just see this unmistakable pattern of certain people nitpicking everything the man does due to not liking his personality or his conservative stripes. I see this all the time at work. People's biased in how they treat others many times has nothing to do with their performance but everything to do with personality.

I see the same trend here. People hate Ford mostly for his conservative nature and they just pick everything apart the man does. Nothing he does is ever go to be good enough in their eyes. Did these same individuals ever apply the same intense, biased scrunity against Miller? NOW never put a fake picture of a naked Miller on their cover.

Smitherman had this previous raging drug problem and a very public abusive record towards people at work and yet, so many people went silent and gave him a pass. The same people that screamed Ford was abusive, wife beater and a drunk looked the other way when Smitherman's name came up.

The answer is simple. Smitherman was a liberal and Ford is a conservative. That's why people are still taking cheap shots at him. Enough with my rant. I still don't see the logic of insisting the stadium be built out in the burbs when we have the hub of public transportation right downtown.

And no one has explained either why seeing a game downtown kills the experience..
 
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Riverdale Rink Rat said:
That, my dear SCC, is why it's known as sarcasm. Sorry if it didn't come through. My point (and I did have one) was that I don't think it's out of line to 'bash' (i.e. criticize) Ford within the scope of the topic. And, IMHO, Ford and his donor deserve to be excoriated for this boondoggle.
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So somehow privatizing garbage collection and so called 'paying the cops' has to do with the possibility of a future Portlands Stadium...good argument there 'my dear' Riverdale Rink Rat. I think a location in the Portlands is fantastic for a large-scale stadium, but it won't be another 10 years before the city might even consider building one unless we were to bid for the 2020 Olympics. As far as that goes, not so sure Toronto is ready for an Olympic bid by 2013.
 
The next available summer olympis is 2016. As we just had the winter olympics last year, it would be difficult to see Canada score another olympic prize so soon. 2020 mightbe more realistic especially since the emotional Greek and political Chinese olympics are out of the way. T.O. was overlooked a couple of times when it should have won so 2020 may be perfect - if there is support.


UPDATE - my mistake, apparently 2106 games are slated for Rio de Janeiro and Rome is the fix for 2020 as since IOC Vice President Mario Pescante was chosen as the leader of Rome’s bid to host the 2020 Olympic Games. Of course he doesn't see this as a conflict of interest and so far it hasn't been challenged. He was gracious enough to say he would resign from the IOC if it becomes a conflict.


Well how could that possibly be seen as a conflict????

I'm so glad the olympic games aren't politically driven.


Dubai and Dehli are also considering bids as were Tokyo and Cairo, both of which I would assume have other prioroties now - but Dubai ans Cairo would be formidable opponents as they have most of the sports venues in place.
 
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StCatharinesCitizen said:
So somehow privatizing garbage collection and so called 'paying the cops' has to do with the possibility of a future Portlands Stadium...good argument there 'my dear' Riverdale Rink Rat. I think a location in the Portlands is fantastic for a large-scale stadium, but it won't be another 10 years before the city might even consider building one unless we were to bid for the 2020 Olympics. As far as that goes, not so sure Toronto is ready for an Olympic bid by 2013.
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You know, you need to read what I wrote -- I explicitly said that the garbage collection and the pay hike for the police DIDN'T have anything to do with my criticism of this Great White Whale. You and I are not really arguing (other than my having irritated you with my tone). When I read your comments, you basically say, "I'd like a big stadium, and I think this is a good place for it." For me, a big stadium here would cut into the grand parkland that's supposed to be built that would continue to enhance my neighbourhood (nothing personal, but you and 80,000 friends flooding into the 'nabe doesn't excite me, although I don't really care.)

But my biggest argument against this boondoggle is just that -- it's a boondoggle. There's no way this gets built without hundreds and hundreds of millions of tax dollars that could be used in much more useful ways being spent to build a stadium I'll see the inside of twice in twenty years, if I bother to buy a ticket. Stadia don't increase the area economy, they don't add to the ambience (except the few dozen days they're used) and they take up a huge amount of space that is tabbed for parkland. Why would I want it here? Put it on Ste. Catherine's waterfront instead, and pay for it yourself, if you want it so badly.
 
I agree that such a stadium would be a boondoggle - and an immense wasted opportunity for city-building down by the waterfront. More land would be allotted for parking than the for stadium itself. It would likely kill adjacent development rather than enhance it as the stadium would skew neighbouring land use and traffic planning.

This whole project is a fantasy, and I truly hope it stays that way.
 
Riverdale Rink Rat said:
You know, you need to read what I wrote -- I explicitly said that the garbage collection and the pay hike for the police DIDN'T have anything to do with my criticism of this Great White Whale. You and I are not really arguing (other than my having irritated you with my tone). When I read your comments, you basically say, "I'd like a big stadium, and I think this is a good place for it." For me, a big stadium here would cut into the grand parkland that's supposed to be built that would continue to enhance my neighbourhood (nothing personal, but you and 80,000 friends flooding into the 'nabe doesn't excite me, although I don't really care.)

But my biggest argument against this boondoggle is just that -- it's a boondoggle. There's no way this gets built without hundreds and hundreds of millions of tax dollars that could be used in much more useful ways being spent to build a stadium I'll see the inside of twice in twenty years, if I bother to buy a ticket. Stadia don't increase the area economy, they don't add to the ambience (except the few dozen days they're used) and they take up a huge amount of space that is tabbed for parkland. Why would I want it here? Put it on Ste. Catherine's waterfront instead, and pay for it yourself, if you want it so badly.
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To clear up my point, I would love to see a Portland stadium, as long as it doesnt sacrifice the tax payers money. We have similar situation here in St Catharines (on a much smaller scale) planning to build a 5000 seat spectator facility. I will definately not be pouring my money on the proposal seeing as the owner of the Niagara Ice Dogs has plenty money of his own.

As far as the location and appeal, I believe that it can be done in a way that accents the waterfront. It could be incorporated into future parklands and reallly accent the waterfront the way Rogers centre accents the downtown skyline. If the olympics were to come to Toronto in 2020, the stadium could be funded by provincial/federal governments as well as private investment.

Although I am optimistic for Toronto to win the 2020 Olympics, the only problem I see is a possible bid coming from Africa (specifically South Africa). The IOC has stated that they would favour a bid from Africa seeing as they have never held the games before. Other than that I hope for the best and I believe that the success/failure of the Pan Am Games will either greatly benefit or hurt a future bid.
 
Are there any cities with NFL cities we can look to with successful/well appreciated waterfronts that include an NFL stadium?
 
tkip said:
Smitherman had this previous raging drug problem and a very public abusive record towards people at work and yet, so many people went silent and gave him a pass. The same people that screamed Ford was abusive, wife beater and a drunk looked the other way when Smitherman's name came up.

The answer is simple. Smitherman was a liberal and Ford is a conservative. That's why people are still taking cheap shots at him. Enough with my rant. I still don't see the logic of insisting the stadium be built out in the burbs when we have the hub of public transportation right downtown.

And no one has explained either why seeing a game downtown kills the experience..
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Smitherman took ownership of his own past drug problem and spoke honestly about how he worked to overcome it. Ford only ever came clean about his DUI and ejection from a Leafs game after he was called on it. Initially, he lied both times.

That said, I agree that I think it's a bit out-of-turn to dismiss the idea of a Port Lands stadium completely, just because it's a Ford proposal. My issue is that they've ignored the successful framework of Waterfront Toronto and instead tried to barrel through and do their own thing. The only way a stadium would ever work in this area is with a coordinated planning approach that would ensure sufficient transit and area amenities.
 
StCatharinesCitizen said:
To clear up my point, I would love to see a Portland stadium, as long as it doesnt sacrifice the tax payers money. We have similar situation here in St Catharines (on a much smaller scale) planning to build a 5000 seat spectator facility. I will definately not be pouring my money on the proposal seeing as the owner of the Niagara Ice Dogs has plenty money of his own.

As far as the location and appeal, I believe that it can be done in a way that accents the waterfront. It could be incorporated into future parklands and reallly accent the waterfront the way Rogers centre accents the downtown skyline. If the olympics were to come to Toronto in 2020, the stadium could be funded by provincial/federal governments as well as private investment.

Although I am optimistic for Toronto to win the 2020 Olympics, the only problem I see is a possible bid coming from Africa (specifically South Africa). The IOC has stated that they would favour a bid from Africa seeing as they have never held the games before. Other than that I hope for the best and I believe that the success/failure of the Pan Am Games will either greatly benefit or hurt a future bid.
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I think Toronto has a decent shot at 2020 see list of potential bidders here:

http://www.bladesplace.id.au/olympic-games-candidates.html

Although as I said before, I think the fix is in for Rome.
 
tkip said:
People hate Ford mostly for his conservative nature and they just pick everything apart the man does. Nothing he does is ever go to be good enough in their eyes. Did these same individuals ever apply the same intense, biased scrunity against Miller? NOW never put a fake picture of a naked Miller on their cover.
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I dunno, but I can recall leafing through some of the election threads of the past and there was some pretty intense dislike for Miller expressed by some members. As for the picture of Bob Ford, I guess Miller didn't have what it takes for such an image.

Smitherman had this previous raging drug problem and a very public abusive record towards people at work and yet, so many people went silent and gave him a pass. The same people that screamed Ford was abusive, wife beater and a drunk looked the other way when Smitherman's name came up.

The answer is simple. Smitherman was a liberal and Ford is a conservative. That's why people are still taking cheap shots at him. Enough with my rant. I still don't see the logic of insisting the stadium be built out in the burbs when we have the hub of public transportation right downtown.
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Actually, Smitherman wasn't elected and Ford was. That means it is Ford who has to face the criticisms of citizens for his actions. And as for Smitherman's drug issue, you raised it, so its clearly not a dead topic for you. Finally, some people are politically Liberal. Being so does not automatically mean that they can't express their opinions about a conservative politician like Ford. From what I recall, Ford invited the idiot Cherry who had his merry day bleating about pinkos. I guess its okay for him to voice those political sentiments because he's a celebrity conservative. It's also clear by now that these are the same sentiments that Ford takes to heart - but without wearing similar idiotic attire as Cherry. But somehow its not okay to criticize Ford's politics.
 
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