Toronto L-Tower | 204.82m | 58s | Cityzen | Daniel Libeskind

The city has every right to demand money or public amenities from the developers. For far too long, the developer has had an easy road in this city, as evidenced by numerous ugly buildings and overall a removal of public space in favour of private space.

To me, it's about time that the city and we as citizens start to reap some benefit from all this development (besides property taxes).
 
To me, it's about time that the city and we as citizens start to reap some benefit from all this development (besides property taxes).

This is beginning to happen in parts of Ward 20. Adam Vaughan has been very proactive in getting as much out of developers as he can for the City and residents. For example, 550 Wellington will have a public courtyard with a n-s pedestrian connection through the site. The courtyard will have some sort of water feature, to be turned into a skating rink during the frozen months. To me it's a start, but definitely far from the norm.

In terms of the L Tower, I don't mind the idea of having a public square given the location, but put don't get rid of the podium all together and only residential dwellings. 60 units is quite a bit. I would prefer to see a reduced podium, with at most 30 extra units, but include some commercial space and retail at grade that would attract people to the public square. I don't mean the standard dry cleaner/subway/Mr. Movie etc., but a cafe with outdoor seating (even Starbucks will do) and some sort of tourism/information office.
 
To me, it's about time that the city and we as citizens start to reap some benefit from all this development (besides property taxes).

Then why during this 3year boom has my property taxes on my old 100 year old house in Parkdale gone up 38%.Wont be long before these guys at city hall tax property owners and buisness to death.None of this money from developers is ever trickled back to the average Joe.
 
AG:

Perhaps your property taxes has been low to start off with (relative to 905 standards). Besides, how much as your property appreciated in value over the past 3 years (being in Parkdale, of all places).

With regards to your previous post - I am sure the decline of the film industry has to do with city policies instead of exchange rates; that the Expo bid failed due to David Miller instead of the unwillingess of the Feds to pony up, etc.

AoD
 
It was a newspaper article about all the problems that the Distillery District developers are having with the city. Even Pam McConnell acknowledged that. The city keeps making financial demands ( basically extortion ) on the developers and if they refuse, they hold the project up with red tape.

The City does seem to be double-dipping on the Distillery projects.

You have to admit that Mayor Miller and many of the councillors, like Vaughan are very arrogant and self-absorbed. He's appointed ONLY left-wingers to his executive council and he's far too power-hungry and micro-manages everything HIS way only! In other words; A dictator. I find it off-putting. He doesn't listen to anyone else's opinion. I am also against those taxes he imposed.

Now I wouldn't mind it, if he acted more like that against the province and feds. He's always so polite and respectful to them; but arrogant to everyone else.

While there are no parties at City Hall per se, it is the mayor's prerogative to stack the committees with other councillors who see things his way. Why shouldn't he do that? What makes him the Mayor otherwise? If he has no more say than another councillor, then he's just a councillor. He won the vote as Mayor however, so he gets to try to steer the ship if he can. To do that you have to put people who agree with you in the places that affect the policy changes they want. If the people of the city don't like the direction or style taken, they can throw the Mayor and any councillors out come the next election.

That one councillor, I believe her name is Stintz, Is against every project.

Yeah, you've got Karen's number! In fact, that's why she's at City Hall - she ran on a platform opposing the Minto project at Yonge & Eg - and the voters there put her into that seat. While she has never forgotten where her bread is buttered, I wonder if the anti-development vote in that ward will be so strong during the next election now that Minto Midtown is nearly finished and no longer considered evil-incarnate. And while I do not mean to say that all other development applications are being welcomed these days (there's a very intrusive one northwest of Yonge & Eg working it's way through the system at the moment), people seem to be more accepting of the need to intensify the city now than they were back when Ms. Stintz was first elected.

I also believe that the city is taking advantage of developers with that article 37?? ( or whatever the name is ) They are abusing that privilege and those extra costs are passed on to the condo purchaser.

As stated earlier in this thread, the city is receiving a $ 4 Million ( donation )?? and a $ 1 Million square in exchange for 60 extra units! The city will be earning extra taxes from those 60 extra units, and those taxes are the only money they should be receiving. The city is just getting greedier and greedier.

Property taxes (and now a few other new, rather negligible taxes) keep City programs running. Programs like Police, the Fire Department, Libraries, the TTC, Parks and Rec, etc.

When new residents move in there is a need for the City to prepare properly for them. Section 37 provides some capital funds for new infrastructure in the area that new residents will be using. There is no reason not to pass those costs on to the condo purchaser.

If that is the case in today's economic turmoil, they won't have too many investors knocking on their door. They have pushed the film industry out of town. They blew the World's Fair application proposal when it was ours to win. They have taxed the industries to death where they have all moved to the 905. Personally, I think this crew at City Hall are a bunch of pussies with no direction. Everything the city touches turns to shit, I will hate to see the final product if ever build of Union Station, Nathan Phillips Square, West Donlands.
It will be scary if any of these look anything like the mediocre crap being controlled and built by them across the city.

To make your post easier to read, I fixed spelling, punctuation, capitalization, spacing, tenses, and with all that done, most of your accusations are still baseless raving. There's no point for me to take on any of your points because I don't think you've made a convincing case for any of them in the first place.

I have heard municipalities called many things, but greedy is a category that this city does not fall into.

The City is caught in bind. As the only level of government that doesn't rely on income and sales taxes which increase when the economy is good, they have to find revenue sources to pay for programs that have to expand in good economies. The TTC is a perfect example: more people are riding public transit, so more vehicles have to be put on the roads. Capital and running costs for buses, streetcars, subways, go up. Since only 80 something percent of the cost of each ride is covered by the fare (best cost recovery on the continent, by the way), the money to run those extra vehicles has to come from somewhere. The City is seen by some as greedy for having introduced some new taxes, but overall* I agree with Catcher: the City is just doing what it has too.

The city has every right to demand money or public amenities from the developers. For far too long, the developer has had an easy road in this city, as evidenced by numerous ugly buildings and overall a removal of public space in favour of private space.

To me, it's about time that the city and we as citizens start to reap some benefit from all this development (besides property taxes).

True dat.

42

*I have some small quibbles with the way some programs are handled, but the percentage of the City's budget that would be effected were those programs to be run as I would prefer would be negligible in the greater scheme.
 
To make your post easier to read, I fixed spelling, punctuation, capitalization, spacing, tenses, and with all that done, most of your accusations are still baseless raving. There's no point for me to take on any of your points because I don't think you've made a convincing case for any of them in the first place.

I thought this was a forum not school.
Tunnel vision is not healthy.
 
Hi - a few thoughts on some misinformation and misplaced blame on the developer:

Wow - I can't believe it. I am infuriated! How can they just change things when we've invested our hard earned dollars, have been waiting patiently for the promise of parking to materialize, and now get slapped with a project re-design and a dilution of our unit value with an additional 60-70 unit supply coming on the market.

To be honest there really isn't anything you can do - you invested in the condo, not in the AHA cultural facility - in reality they were two seperate entities that were planned in the same structure. It's not the developers fault that the federal government didn't kick in $25 million and that the citizens of Toronto didn't raise significant funds similar to the ROM & AGO campaigns to facilitate the construction of the cultural facility. The legal documents that you signed upon your purchase were for the condo portion of the project and the condo portion only.

Just re-reading the PDF file.....this whole thing stinks... Castlepoint gets to build an extra 60,000 sq. ft. of residential space to sell to the public, i.e. 60 or 70 additional condos...

The city gets extortion, er, a payment of $4 million dollars...

Castlepoint pays the $1 million it costs to build the "plaza"...

The Libeskind podium is destroyed... What an absolute travesty! I hope Studio Libeskind sues these idiots

YYZer... was that post a joke? Studio Libeskind is the developer’s client. I would suggest the opposite point of view. We have a developer that actually cares about architecture and leaving a positive mark on the City of Toronto - they hired one of the top firms in the world to bring about their vision for a new cultural facility and condo tower (a travesty would have been the initial design by another architect that was posted on UT a few years ago) - for better or for worse a new cultural facility isn't cheap and it required both donations from private citizens and public contributions from all levels of government to become a reality... that money never came and the developer is left to scramble and try to keep the project alive - hardly a bunch of "idiots", but rather a developer that is trying to do something positive for the city by bringing in international architect and attempting to build a new cultural facility.

Imagine. $1 million poneyed up by the builder to build the plaza. What a joke! Most any upscale home in this city has more invested in the backyard. This is such absolute BULL****!

The builder has far far more than $1 million in public benefits set aside for this project.
The section 37 agreement alone with a list of over 30 public benefits that must be paid for by the developer, plus the 1% of construction cost public art contribution - not to mention the tens millions of dollars in development charges, planning fees, permit fees, land transfer taxes and then the tens of millions of additional taxes paid to other levels of government - development is one of the most heavily taxed and regulated industries in the province - there are substantial public and economic benefits to this project, so to belittle it's contribution by reducing it to $1 million and comparing it to a backyard is beyond ridiculous...

I am surprised that the developer is even allowed to tinker with the design at this point. I would think that for it to carry Libeskind's name, it would have to be as he intended or not at all. I loved the original design and I think that the "boot" portion would have looked amazing for pedestrians and traffic heading east from Union Station. Why dont they just convert the boot from commercial to loft style units... or build it as originally intended on spec of future use???

Redroom, this comment bothers me as Libeskind is a client of the developer (and was paid handsomely for his work) - in all likelihood he's going to be the one that does the redesign of the base of the tower. Most architects have done work on projects that get built and others that don't ever see the light of day - it's a professional hazard I guess.

Of course the developer is allowed to tinker with their project design (it will still have to go through necessary approvals) – otherwise the entire project would be cancelled – they are trying to save the project.

Re: spec of future use - are you crazy? How would that get done? What bank or lender in their right mind would finance this risky endeavor - even in good market conditions. The developer doesn't have the financial ability to front that cost on their own and there is very little capital available on the markets to build anything on spec, let alone the podium of the L tower. There are a number of nearly sold out condo projects by reputable Toronto developers that have been unable to or have lost financing completely - the situation in not very good out there and nobody is going to finance large commercial ventures on spec - especially from a relatively new player without a track record for this kind of development. Financing for the condo portion is already an issue.

With all that said, I share the disappointment by most people as this landmark project, while still generally spectacular, it has potentially lost one of the key selling points for the citizens of Toronto.... which is no fault whatsoever of the developer - the feds didn't pony up $25 million and the fundraising efforts for the AHA centre never got very far. If anything the developer did everything they could by hiring one of the top architectural firms in the world to design a landmark building and cultural facility as well as contributing significant financial resources of their own to the project - it's the other players that didn't come to the table with money that caused this to fall through.
 
Is there any chance Libeskind could take his design back (it'd probably end up in the hands of Dubai or Denver, though) or does the developer "own" it? I suppose he could sue them for altering his vision, but does Libeskind have any recourse other than legal action over how his designs on paper are implemented between the time when he's turned over the final design to the clients and when the building's finished? I'm assuming Libeskind would care strongly about the alteration, of course.

Mongo:

You made it sound as if Bazis hired Norman Foster and the city forced them to use R. Varacalli Architect instead. The original designs are at best barely acceptable; the new design is barely acceptable. What of it?

Toronto's Foster, the Pharmacy Building, is also, at best, barely acceptable...
 
Mike in TO,
I appreciated your response very much but do you agree/disagree that too many projects in this City are wet dreams of developers that are sold to unsuspecting buyers? For example, this project, why is it unreasonable that after the deals with the City are done, the zoning in place, the variances sorted out etc. that the developer now sells to the public? Way too early last year in my opinion.
 
Mike in TO,
I appreciated your response very much but do you agree/disagree that too many projects in this City are wet dreams of developers that are sold to unsuspecting buyers? For example, this project, why is it unreasonable that after the deals with the City are done, the zoning in place, the variances sorted out etc. that the developer now sells to the public? Way too early last year in my opinion.

I generally disagree with your statement that 'too' many projects aren't based on unrealistic expectations – pre-selling of units is perhaps a necessary evil due to the significant time that and therefore risk associated with the approvals process (I would suggest some developers are over jealous in how early sales start, while others have a pretty strong indication of how the process will ultimately end prior to putting a project on the market) – while some buyers are ultimately hurt by changes in the project, many have benefited significantly (especially the last few years), due to increases in unit values prior to occupancy. With respect to the L-Tower it required $25 million from the feds which seemed pretty far-fetched from the beginning considering the political party that currently holds the purse strings in Ottawa - not to mention the additional tens of millions that needed to be raised through a fund-raising campaign that never seemed to happen.

I don't buy the 'unsuspecting' buyers argument - if you have a very low risk tolerance buy resale - what you see is generally what you get - if you have a higher risk tolerance, are willing to wait for your unit to be delivered and hope for a potentially higher return on your investment go ahead and buy a unit in an extremely complex unapproved 57s tower by a starchitect on top of a heritage building that will be a part of a new cultural facility that requires tens of millions in donations and grants from multiple levels of government.

When the project initially went onto the market it was perceived to be under-valued (~$500 psf) and many of the buyers were agents and industry people - people that more than anyone should know what they are getting themselves into and on paper they've made a handsome profit regardless of which version of the tower is ultimately built (the remaining inventory is averaging $712psf).

It's a risky business and the project doesn't appear to be panning out as originally planned - that's not entirely unusual, especially on projects with this scale.

Mike I'm sure you meant to say that the developer is Libeskind's client....

Yes - thank you for the correction - but either way Libeskind isn't about to sue his client because funding wasn't available for a portion of the project - I'm sure that is a situation that the architect is used to - development is an iterative process with designs often in flux and this design has changed and evolved during the city planning and community consultation process. Architects don't design projects for their clients and say "take it or leave it - I won't accept any changes due to planning, political or financial circumstances" - that kind of architect wouldn't find a whole lot of business for their work if that was the case. Maybe he should sue the feds for not donating $25 million to the AHA Centre?
 

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