drum118
Superstar
What pedestrians can be counted on Hurontario when there is next to none in the first place?Originally Posted by rbtSt. Clair has about 20% of it's modal share as walking/bicycling. Hurontario doesn't get nearly that much pedestrian traffic and the Mississauga report seems to ignore pedestrians completely in their modal-share counts.
You may find some in Cooksville, but next to none out side of that area. Walking to stops on Hurontario does count and in the report. Only 11% use transit in Mississauga with a large percentage going to/from GO stations/terminal in the first place.
Very rare you will find me walking on Hurontario. I would say only about 10% of my travel is to Hurontario these days to catch either the 19 or 103.
Mississauga is a non pedestrian city and focus on the CAR.
doady
Senior Member
There are plenty of pedestrians along Hurontario, but not as the primary mode. So they are not counted as pedestrians in terms of mode share.
Local transit mode share in Mississauga is around 8% (brampton 6%). I guess 11% is transit overall including GO. To say that "a large percentage" of MiWay riders are GO riders is not supported by any stats. MT sees around 170k boardings per weekday, while Milton Line sees only 25k, and the vast majority of Milton riders park-and-ride. GO operates no Milton trains on weekends. The percentage of MT riders using GO is likely close to 0%.
Local transit use is highest in east Mississauga near the Toronto border and lowest in the west. Hurontario is just average, so it's amazing that its current ridership is so high with such poor mode share. Toronto is around 25% transit mode share city-wide, three times higher than Mississauga. If Hurontario could match the mode share that the suburban corridors of Toronto have already, that's a huge increase in ridership right there, before you consider the development and funneling effect of the LRT. They are predicting a 4-fold increase in ridership for transit along Hurontario - I think that's too conservative if anything.
Local transit mode share in Mississauga is around 8% (brampton 6%). I guess 11% is transit overall including GO. To say that "a large percentage" of MiWay riders are GO riders is not supported by any stats. MT sees around 170k boardings per weekday, while Milton Line sees only 25k, and the vast majority of Milton riders park-and-ride. GO operates no Milton trains on weekends. The percentage of MT riders using GO is likely close to 0%.
Local transit use is highest in east Mississauga near the Toronto border and lowest in the west. Hurontario is just average, so it's amazing that its current ridership is so high with such poor mode share. Toronto is around 25% transit mode share city-wide, three times higher than Mississauga. If Hurontario could match the mode share that the suburban corridors of Toronto have already, that's a huge increase in ridership right there, before you consider the development and funneling effect of the LRT. They are predicting a 4-fold increase in ridership for transit along Hurontario - I think that's too conservative if anything.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
In my experience, Hurontario and a few other routes like Burnhamthorpe and Dundas have huge crowds while the rest are empty due to low frequencies. The GO train is a joke but ridership would go up by an order of magnitude if service was improved. The 21 and 45/46/47 GO buses are busy though.
howl
Active Member
The whole point of the Hurontario-Main Street LRT is to transform Hurontario Street into a real urban street that is pedestrian-friendly. Over the next thirty years many parts of Hurontario street are expected to evolve much the way Yonge Street north of the 401 has been evolving over the last 30 years. The LRT is about thinking ahead to how we want the city to be, not about perpetuating the status quo.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I hope that the main goal of Hurontario-Main Street LRT, or any other transit line, is to move transit riders more comfortably and efficiently. Transforming the street may be a welcome side effect, but should not be seen as the main goal.
Dan416
Senior Member
I'd think in this case the HMLRT will do both
andrewpmk
Senior Member
I would never expect Hurontario to grow the same amount as North York Centre. Maybe in a few blocks surrounding Square One it will look like that, let's hope that there are other transit options in that area (like an underground extension of the Milton GO train to Square One) to prevent the Hurontario LRT from being overcrowded. North of Eglinton Hurontario is under the Pearson flightpath and can't be redeveloped. Around Dundas/Hurontario is a fairly low income area so I suspect it won't see that much growth either.
Dan416
Senior Member
I disagree. Hurontario has tons of potential, especially in and around Cooksville.
doady
Senior Member
The Airport operating area is between Matheson and 407. Development is allowed as long as it is not residential. There are some high-rise office buildings already.
So at least high density is possible there, unlike between QEW and Port Credit GO, because of the rich NIMBYs. I don't think much much will happen north of SHopper's World either, outside of Downtown Brampton.
Dundas-Hurontario is low income now, but with all-day GO and LRT on Hurontario and maybe even Dundas too? Who knows. That area actually has the highest developement potential of all the Hurontario corridor....
I don't know when you use the bus or which buses you're talking about, but living here I can say Mississauga buses are usually at least half full, even during midday, no matter the frequencies (and they aren't that bad). Rush hour, the buses are usually standing room only. Hurontario is a busy route but it doesn't exist in isolation. People transfer to/from other routes.
The MT routes with highest weekday boardings as of 2012 are as follows:
19/103 Hurontario/Express - 27,802
1/101/201 Dundas/Express - 19,998
7/34/35/87 Airport/Credit Valley/Eglinton - 14,135
26/76 Burnhamthorpe - 11,448
3 Bloor - 8,040
110 University Express - 8,034
5 Dixie - 7,170
42 Derry - 5,913
13/29 Glen Erin/Park Royal - 5,805
61 Mavis - 4,864
22 Finch - 4,572
66 McLaughlin - 4,474
23 Lakeshore - 4,139
http://dmg.utoronto.ca/pdf/tts/2011/validation2011.pdf
Note that the numbers for Hurontario don't include 502 Zum Main or 2 Main, which saw 9,244 and 2,720 boardings per weekday in 2012. It's possible some of these people transfer to MT 19/103 so there's some double count, but I think it's safe to the Hurontario-Main corridor currently sees over 35,000 riders per weekday. That's at least 10 million boardings annually. Factoring increased mode share, development, people going out their way to use the line, anyone still think the LRT cannot reach 29 million?
So at least high density is possible there, unlike between QEW and Port Credit GO, because of the rich NIMBYs. I don't think much much will happen north of SHopper's World either, outside of Downtown Brampton.
Dundas-Hurontario is low income now, but with all-day GO and LRT on Hurontario and maybe even Dundas too? Who knows. That area actually has the highest developement potential of all the Hurontario corridor....
I don't know when you use the bus or which buses you're talking about, but living here I can say Mississauga buses are usually at least half full, even during midday, no matter the frequencies (and they aren't that bad). Rush hour, the buses are usually standing room only. Hurontario is a busy route but it doesn't exist in isolation. People transfer to/from other routes.
The MT routes with highest weekday boardings as of 2012 are as follows:
19/103 Hurontario/Express - 27,802
1/101/201 Dundas/Express - 19,998
7/34/35/87 Airport/Credit Valley/Eglinton - 14,135
26/76 Burnhamthorpe - 11,448
3 Bloor - 8,040
110 University Express - 8,034
5 Dixie - 7,170
42 Derry - 5,913
13/29 Glen Erin/Park Royal - 5,805
61 Mavis - 4,864
22 Finch - 4,572
66 McLaughlin - 4,474
23 Lakeshore - 4,139
http://dmg.utoronto.ca/pdf/tts/2011/validation2011.pdf
Note that the numbers for Hurontario don't include 502 Zum Main or 2 Main, which saw 9,244 and 2,720 boardings per weekday in 2012. It's possible some of these people transfer to MT 19/103 so there's some double count, but I think it's safe to the Hurontario-Main corridor currently sees over 35,000 riders per weekday. That's at least 10 million boardings annually. Factoring increased mode share, development, people going out their way to use the line, anyone still think the LRT cannot reach 29 million?
TOareaFan
Superstar
Not the answer you want, but yes I still doubt it......as we discussed upthread, I hope your right and I am wrong, but I don't buy some of the assumptions in the master plan and I don't see ridership growth to 3X what it is now.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
One step Mississauga and Brampton should do BEFORE they get a LRT on Hurontario, is to provide 24 hour bus service. Ditto for other bus routes that connect with the TTC's Blue Night services. That should be done NOW before construction even starts.
Personally, a city WITHOUT 24 public transit service is NOT a city.
Personally, a city WITHOUT 24 public transit service is NOT a city.
doady
Senior Member
^ Mississauga is not a city, it's a suburb.
From 2001 to 2012 the ridership of Hurontario increased by 2X.
2001
19 Hurontario 20,888
2 Main 2,315
= 23,203
2012
19 Hurontario 20,554
103 Hurontario Express 7,248
502 Zum Main 9,244
2 Main 2,720
= 39,766
From 2001 to 2012 the ridership of Hurontario increased by 2X.
2001
19 Hurontario 20,888
2 Main 2,315
= 23,203
2012
19 Hurontario 20,554
103 Hurontario Express 7,248
502 Zum Main 9,244
2 Main 2,720
= 39,766
innsertnamehere
Superstar
interesting how all the growth has occurred in the BRT-lite services.
doady
Senior Member
19 Hurontario had 23,189 in 2006, even after the introduction of the 202 Hurontario Express (in 2005). 2 Main was 3,633. So there was a lot of non-express growth too.
Plus the 19 no longer serves Brampton (it ends at 407 now), so it's a shorter route now compared to 2001.
Taking 2 Main out of Shoppers World really hurt it too (riders moved to 52). But the terminal was recently moved to Hurontario/Main St so it doesn't matter anymore...
Plus the 19 no longer serves Brampton (it ends at 407 now), so it's a shorter route now compared to 2001.
Taking 2 Main out of Shoppers World really hurt it too (riders moved to 52). But the terminal was recently moved to Hurontario/Main St so it doesn't matter anymore...