Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

Great to talk buses/BRT vs. LRT, what is the cost different between them to operate them????

A Bus driver and LRT driver based on 2010 cost at $60,000/yr will cost $145,636/yr come 2040.

You need to look at a 30 year life cycle for full cost comparison.

Yes there will be sections of any line where the number will be low compare to the rest of the line, but you need to look at your peak point to see what the service levels will be and how many vehicles you need on the line.

This out dated and incomplete, but an comparison between buses and LRT http://transiturban.ca/transit/BRTvsLRT.html

doady said:

I don't know what you are talking about.

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I am struggling with what we talked a bit about just upthread....that is that a switch from bus service to lrt will result in an 8 - 9fold increase in public transit's share of the traffic. I get that rails over wheels will produce more transit use...but that level of increase just seems wildly optimistic.

TOareaFan said:

I am struggling with what we talked a bit about just upthread....that is that a switch from bus service to lrt will result in an 8 - 9fold increase in public transit's share of the traffic. I get that rails over wheels will produce more transit use...but that level of increase just seems wildly optimistic.

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Lets save this document, pull it out in 2031, and see what happened.

If you pull out Toronto documents from the late 80's it's clear that they were wildly inaccurate in their predictions about 2011.

rbt said:

Lets save this document, pull it out in 2031, and see what happened.

If you pull out Toronto documents from the late 80's it's clear that they were wildly inaccurate in their predictions about 2011.

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Two things....1) I really hope to be around in 2031 to pull out that document and review it 2) I really hope I am wrong.

Is there anywhere else to point to to see what the result on a similar road switiching from a bus service similar to Zum to a LRT and see what the kind of results were?

TOareaFan said:

Is there anywhere else to point to to see what the result on a similar road switiching from a bus service similar to Zum to a LRT and see what the kind of results were?

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Not that I'm aware of. Various LRT proposals in Vancouver overlapping B-Line service would be the closest; but those B-Line buses offer significantly better service than Zum and the LRT is fully grade separated.

You might consider the Salt Lake City Green line to the airport which is in a semi-private ROW. Today's ridership is much higher than the old airport bus was although by GTA standards the Green Line would be a huge failure; though so was the old bus. The Green Line is only a couple years old and is not advertised to tourists very well; took me forever to find it because it's the opposite direction of the plentiful "ground transportation" signs.

There is no such thing as traffic congestion in Salt Lake though. It's pretty easy to cross nearly any street in that city mid-block during rush hour.


Mississauga's BRT predictions for 2031 are not remarkably different from their LRT preditions. What they're really predicting is that if they start providing reliable high-capacity, high-frequency service on that street that ridership will grow to fit.

Going from random 10 minute frequencies (today) with standing room only or leaving people behind to predictable 5 minute or better frequencies with 6 times the number of seats and faster average speeds, will help. Heck, running service matching Finch (45 second headways in mixed traffic) would probably quadruple ridership within a few years.




Chunks of St. Clair match their ridership split predictions with > 60% using the LRT as does King. The design of the Mississauga line is much better than either of those routes.

I think Finch West as a fairly slow moving mixed-traffic bus also carries over 40% of trips for the street but a quick search doesn't come up with anything to support that assertion.

rbt said:

Not that I'm aware of. Various LRT proposals in Vancouver overlapping B-Line service would be the closest; but those B-Line buses offer significantly better service than Zum.

You might consider the Salt Lake City Green line to the airport. Today's ridership is much higher than the old airport bus was although by GTA standards the Green Line would be a huge failure; though so was the old bus. The Green Line is only a couple years old and is not advertised to tourists very well.



Mississauga's BRT predictions for 2031 are not remarkably different from their LRT preditions. What they're really predicting is that if they start providing reliable high-capacity, high-frequency service on that street that ridership will grow to fit.

Going from random 10 minute frequencies (today) with standing room only or leaving people behind to predictable 5 minute frequencies with 6 times the number of seats will help. Heck, running service matching Finch (45 second headways) would probably quadruple ridership within a few years.


Chunks of St. Clair match their ridership split predictions with > 60% using the LRT as does King. The design of the Mississauga line is much better than either of those routes.

I think Finch as a fairly slow moving mixed-traffic bus also carries over 40% of trips for the street but a quick search doesn't come up with anything to support that assertion.

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Thanks for the reply.

Chunks of St. Clair get over 60% but we expect the stretch in Brampton from GO to Steeles to be over 70%? That is the sort of thing that has me all dizzy and confused.

TOareaFan said:

Thanks for the reply.

Chunks of St. Clair get over 60% but we expect the stretch in Brampton from GO to Steeles to be over 70%? That is the sort of thing that has me all dizzy and confused.

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St. Clair is local service with all passengers walking to it; almost nobody transfers from a bus to St. Clair to take the subway. Also, St. Clair has about 20% of it's modal share as walking/bicycling. Hurontario doesn't get nearly that much pedestrian traffic and the Mississauga report seems to ignore pedestrians completely in their modal-share counts. Also, with the new LRVs being added, it wouldn't surprise me if St. Clair LRT hit the 70% range in 2031, with 15% pedestrian, and 15% traffic; nearly 90% if you take pedestrians out of the mix.

Not that traffic decreases in actual vehicles using the street; transit use will increase to take more of the percentage.


Mississauga's plan is a backbone with includes a large number of transfers from other bus routes to use this corridor for North/South travel. If I was going diagonally across Mississauga, I would probably use this route for the North/South portion of the trip too.

Some sections of Hurontario are at 85% of traffic capacity today and I don't see pedestrians coming out on Hurontario by the thousands; so that leaves transit as the primary growth mechanism.

rbt said:

St. Clair is local service with all passengers walking to it; almost nobody transfers from a bus to St. Clair to take the subway. Also, St. Clair has about 20% of it's modal share as walking/bicycling. Hurontario doesn't get nearly that much pedestrian traffic and the Mississauga report seems to ignore pedestrians completely in their modal-share counts. Also, with the new LRVs being added, it wouldn't surprise me if St. Clair LRT hit the 70% range in 2031, with 15% pedestrian, and 15% traffic.

Not that traffic decreases in actual vehicles using the street; transit use will increase to take more of the percentage.


Mississauga's plan is a backbone with includes a large number of transfers from other bus routes to use this corridor for North/South travel. If you were going diagonally across Mississauga, I would probably use this route for the North/South portion of the trip too.

Some sections of Hurontario are at 85% of traffic capacity today and I don't see pedestrians coming out on Hurontario by the thousands; so that leaves transit as the primary growth mechanism.

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I hope your right....i remain highly skeptical about some of those modal share percentages.

I know that LRT is better at driving ridership than bus/Zum but that "spinal" attribute is there now....each east west route in Brampton intersects with that bus route now and it results in transit having a 8.4% share between GO and Steeles....yet with LRT it will grow to 71.1% on that stretch? Call me from Missouri on this one.

TOareaFan said:

I hope your right....i remain highly skeptical about some of those modal share percentages.

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Scepticism is a good thing generally and I share it. Despite knowing how the planners got those numbers, I also know how well Viva, Sheppard, and other suburban transit initiatives have worked out and wonder if those numbers are achievable.

Conversely, investments downtown (GO mostly this decade) seem to frequently hit above expectations.

rbt said:

Scepticism is a good thing generally and I share it. Despite knowing how the planners got those numbers, I also know how well Viva, Sheppard, and other suburban transit initiatives have worked out and wonder if those numbers are achievable.

Conversely, investments downtown (GO mostly this decade) seem to frequently hit above expectations.

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I wonder if that is a mentality thing.....people seem to accept public transit as a mode to get into Toronto but for local or inter-suburban they think "car".

TOareaFan said:

I wonder if that is a mentality thing.....people seem to accept public transit as a mode to get into Toronto but for local or inter-suburban they think "car".

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Probably. Relative congestion levels likely makes a difference too. Downtown streets have been at the 95% of capacity range for a long time but suburban roads are still frequently getting widened when they hit 90%. Vaughan has put as much money into street widening as they have Viva; Viva itself was mostly a street widening project.

When widenings stop, either suburban transit will take-off or growth will completely stall.

The section of the VIVA bus lane was 6 lanes wide before the expansion as well.. no idea if the portion east of the 404 is getting widened though, that was 4 lanes before construction., or a short portion of it at least.

I stand to be corrected, but hwy 7 is supposed to be 8/10 lanes in total wide east of 404 as well west to Victoria Park where it will be 8 lanes to Yonge St. This was from the PIC in York Region.

Growth will still grow after the widen of roads stops along with reducing the width of roads. Mississauga is planing on taking lanes away on some major roads starting with Burnhamthrope.

Hurontario will be reduce with the LRT as plan from 7 lanes to 6 lanes with traffic only having 4 lanes, down from 6 in most places. Same will happen to Dundas with the BRT there.

do you mean 8 lanes with the BRT included? because the recently completed section has 6 car lanes..

innsertnamehere said:

do you mean 8 lanes with the BRT included? because the recently completed section has 6 car lanes..

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Yes, as BRT/LRT are using 2 lanes in the first place and have to be part of the total lanes.

If Mississauga plans to keep the medium for the tress and flower beds, you need to to keep that 7th lane for them. This will apply to areas that don't have them at this time and will be added during construction.

South of QEW, it will be either 5 or 7 lanes and this depends on if the LRT will run in mix traffic as proposed at this time, or a full ROW.