Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Transportfan]

I was referring to LRT, not subway.

 

[Dan416]

How is it overkill on some sections? Even the section north of the 401 would have many passengers aboard travelling through it.

The Metrolinx Benefits Case report estimated that even if you constructed full LRT from Port Credit to Brampton with widely spaced stations and an operating speed of 31 to 34 km/hr you'd only have a maximum of 5,500 passengers/hour at the peak point, in 2031.

How isn't subway overkill?

I'm thinking mainly the southern part of Hurontario near Mineola. That's a wealthy neighbourhood, few people there take public transit, and that section is going to be run more as a streetcar than LRT (i.e. shared lanes) due to the lack of space, particularly under the rail bridge where Port Credit starts.

I'd say LRT is overkill from Port Credit to Queensway, and even north of Eglinton it's lightly used (the buses I mean)--in comparison to the busy section closely north and south of Square One. I'd say the busiest parts of the 19 are around Cooksville and Square One, outside of those areas, LRT isn't 100% necessary and BRT would have been sufficient.

That said, I still think all of Hurontario SHOULD have LRT because it'll be better for the future for it to be ONE mode of transit, and not Bus <-> LRT <-> Bus like the numbers might suggest.

So all you LRTistas who think I'm anti-LRT, folk you.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I'm thinking mainly the southern part of Hurontario near Mineola. That's a wealthy neighbourhood, few people there take public transit, and that section is going to be run more as a streetcar than LRT (i.e. shared lanes) due to the lack of space, particularly under the rail bridge where Port Credit starts.

I'd say LRT is overkill from Port Credit to Queensway, and even north of Eglinton it's lightly used (the buses I mean)--in comparison to the busy section closely north and south of Square One. I'd say the busiest parts of the 19 are around Cooksville and Square One, outside of those areas, LRT isn't 100% necessary and BRT would have been sufficient.

That said, I still think all of Hurontario SHOULD have LRT because it'll be better for the future for it to be ONE mode of transit, and not Bus <-> LRT <-> Bus like the numbers might suggest.

So all you LRTistas who think I'm anti-LRT, folk you.

No LRT in Port Credit to Queensway? Port Credit is a denser population than most sub-divisions in Mississauga. It was a town before becoming part of Mississauga. From this link on TTC Ghosts in Port Credit:

The Town of Port Credit was an old port established late in the 19th century, some distance from the City of Toronto. By the turn of the century, rails from the Toronto & Mimico railway arrived, connecting the town to the villages of Long Branch, New Toronto and Mimico.

When the Toronto Transportation Commission bought out the line in the mid 20s and converted the section east of Long Branch to city standards, the radial service between Long Branch and Port Credit remained, shuttling passengers back and forth until February 10th, 1935, when the tracks were abandoned due to the widening of Lake Shore Road. The line was replaced by the Port Credit bus service operating between Long Branch Loop and Mississauga Road. In 1948, service was extended to Pine Street. In 1956, the service was assigned the route number 74.

Passengers travelling from Pine to the downtown in 1954 paid four suburban fares plus the city fare to complete their trip. Pine Street was in zone 4, with the zone 3 boundary at Beechwood and the zone 2 boundary at Long Branch loop. Even when the two suburban zone fares within Metropolitan Toronto were converted to one, the two fare system outside of Metro continued until 1972, when only one extra fare was required to transfer from the Long Branch streetcar to the Port Credit bus.

In 1974, the province of Ontario merged Toronto township with the towns and villages of Streetsville, Cooksville, Malton, Meadowvale and Port Credit into the City of Mississauga. Soon thereafter, the city started to set up its own transit agency. On February 8, 1976, TTC route 74 became MT route 23, Lakeshore.

Port Credit had radial (suburban streetcar) service until 1935. With high-rises being built nowadays, it may even now have higher density than in 1935. A good candidate for rail service.

 

[gweed123]

I'm thinking mainly the southern part of Hurontario near Mineola. That's a wealthy neighbourhood, few people there take public transit, and that section is going to be run more as a streetcar than LRT (i.e. shared lanes) due to the lack of space, particularly under the rail bridge where Port Credit starts.

I'd say LRT is overkill from Port Credit to Queensway, and even north of Eglinton it's lightly used (the buses I mean)--in comparison to the busy section closely north and south of Square One. I'd say the busiest parts of the 19 are around Cooksville and Square One, outside of those areas, LRT isn't 100% necessary and BRT would have been sufficient.

That said, I still think all of Hurontario SHOULD have LRT because it'll be better for the future for it to be ONE mode of transit, and not Bus <-> LRT <-> Bus like the numbers might suggest.

So all you LRTistas who think I'm anti-LRT, folk you.

I agree completely. Yes some areas may have higher ridership than others, but look at the nodes that it connects, and look at the average ridership.

I'm all for LRT where it's appropriate, and here it's 100% appropriate.

GO is going to bear the brunt of the long haul commuting in Mississauga by the time this thing is open anyway, so having it serve a more local nature isn't a bad thing.

 

[drum118]

If one looks at the current ridership numbers for MT from PC to SW, the section between Paisley and Bristol has the most riders. In fact, the section between Dundas and Sq One is your peak point area, with Dundas being the highest ridership point going north and Sq One going south.

Since I use a pass, I cannot check numbers for the BT 502 to see how it compares to the original MT 19 numbers.

I do know the 502 north of SW carries far more riders today than the BT 2 did and that because of Sheridan College.

Ridership going to/from PC south of Paisley only needs every 2nd bus doing this section.

The Mineola area is the most NIMBY group you can find and they opposed any lowrise to midrise on Hurontario, even though it has been said 10 storey is the max if anything every got built on it. Most MT buses pickup no one between Park St and the North Service road. If they do, its at the Mineola Stop.

Right now, there is a movement to prevent anything over 3 storey on the Lakeshore and that is not going to help the plan LRT for that road. The density for the area is less than 75.

Was at a meeting Wed night for the development at Cathwra and Atwater that only 4 storey with 134 units and these NIMBY wanted single or sem's and could live with 20 townhouses. Great density and no support for transit. The plan development was only 2.5 for the lot and far too low.

Once development takes place at Eglinton, there no more places on Hurontario to put in density to support LRT, let alone an idea of a subway. The area south of Dundas is to see development to the Queensway, but far off in the distance.

 

[doady]

Yeah, the transit ridership along Hurontario south of the QEW is quite poor compared to the rest of corridor. They could have 19 short turn every two out of three buses at North Service like they do at Britannia and the buses still wouldn't be full. Suggesting it will be the busiest part of the LRT is ridiculous. The ridership is low, the density is low, the development potential is low - this section is not why the LRT is needed. The fact that Port Credit used to be a town is totally irrelevant. Streetsville used to be town as well, but doesn't mean there should be an LRT along Mississauga Rd / Queen St.

 

[andrewpmk]

Yeah, the transit ridership along Hurontario south of the QEW is quite poor compared to the rest of corridor. They could have 19 short turn every two out of three buses at North Service like they do at Britannia and the buses still wouldn't be full. Suggesting it will be the busiest part of the LRT is ridiculous. The ridership is low, the density is low, the development potential is low - this section is not why the LRT is needed. The fact that Port Credit used to be a town is totally irrelevant. Streetsville used to be town as well, but doesn't mean there should be an LRT along Mississauga Rd / Queen St.

Run the Lakeshore GO train more often than once an hour, then people will use Port Credit as a transfer point and ridership will go up.

Also I have 0 sympathy for anti-high density development NIMBY groups, who do little but make housing less affordable.

 

[Dan416]

Absolutely the Lakeshore line should be 30 minutes frequency minimum, but I feel the same way about the Milton line.

The NIMBY-ness of Port Credit is shocking. FRAM has built some great stuff there and now they're facing NIMBYs. Unbelieveable.

As doady said, South of QEW there's little ridership outside of the GO station.

 

[gweed123]

Absolutely the Lakeshore line should be 30 minutes frequency minimum, but I feel the same way about the Milton line.

The NIMBY-ness of Port Credit is shocking. FRAM has built some great stuff there and now they're facing NIMBYs. Unbelieveable.

As doady said, South of QEW there's little ridership outside of the GO station.

Once the GO line is electrified and running frequent all-day service, I think we're going to see a pretty big spike in the number of people taking the LRT down to the Port Credit GO station.

 

[drum118]

Once the GO line is electrified and running frequent all-day service, I think we're going to see a pretty big spike in the number of people taking the LRT down to the Port Credit GO station.

Once the Milton line is upgraded and offer the same service as Lakeshore, the ridership will remain the same as it is today to the point it may loose riders.

Ridership will increase some what when GO goes to 30 minute service, but more so if it went to 20/15. That until the Milton line comes on line.

Unless there more density south of the QEW on Hurontario, ridership is going to be poor from the Queensway to PC.

More riders get on the Hurontario bus from MT other routes than GO at PC.

 

[gweed123]

Once the Milton line is upgraded and offer the same service as Lakeshore, the ridership will remain the same as it is today to the point it may loose riders.

Ridership will increase some what when GO goes to 30 minute service, but more so if it went to 20/15. That until the Milton line comes on line.

Unless there more density south of the QEW on Hurontario, ridership is going to be poor from the Queensway to PC.

More riders get on the Hurontario bus from MT other routes than GO at PC.

That's true. I guess the Lakeshore line will be more useful for people in western Mississauga, because the Milton line is significantly further north at that point. I suspect that Clarkson will see a greater increase in ridership even after Milton opens because of that.

 

[Dan416]

If Milton got hourly train service I could also see it losing riders, especially seeing as it's virtually 30 minute bus service at all stations or better for most of the day.

 

[RedRocket191]

If Milton got hourly train service I could also see it losing riders, especially seeing as it's virtually 30 minute bus service at all stations or better for most of the day.

I'd agree with that, and it's not going to be limited to the Milton line.

Hopefully when hourly service comes to the Milton line the Mississauga Busway will be done and they will use it maintain half-hourly express buses to Union via Kipling terminal.

 

[doady]

Once the GO line is electrified and running frequent all-day service, I think we're going to see a pretty big spike in the number of people taking the LRT down to the Port Credit GO station.

Not only will Lakeshore GO get electrified, but there will also be a Lakeshore LRT as well.

But the Milton Line will be electrified or otherwise improved eventually too. And there will be the Dundas BRT/LRT and the Mississauga Transitway. These will be far bigger draws than Lakeshore LRT or GO.

1/101/201 Dundas/Express sees around 20,000 boardings per weekday, and the City Centre/Square One bus terminal sees around 20,000 riders. These numbers are far higher than for Port Credit GO, which also already had less boardings than the Cooksville GO station in 2001, let alone today with all the extra trips that have been added to the Milton train-bus service since 2001. As for the 23 Lakeshore bus, it has around one-fifth the ridership of Dundas Street.

Will Lakeshore GO have greater impact than Milton GO? Will Lakeshore LRT have greater impact than Dundas LRT? I don't think so. And then there's the Mississauga Transitway. If you think the 109, 110 and the GO York U buses are busy now, wait until the Transitway is built.

Another factor will be the amount of development: Hurontario south of the QEW will remain stagnant or decline due to NIMBYism while the rest of the corridor will continually redevelop and increase in density.

The busiest section of Hurontario transit-wise by far is QEW to Eglinton and that will never change. In fact, I would argue that the section south of QEW will actually become even less busy over time relative to the rest of the corridor.

 

[RedRocket191]

In a province where provincial policy is quite clear - intensification should come around transit lines - and where the OMB will overrule councils whose planning decisions do not comply that with provincial policy, I have serious doubts that community opposition will have a huge impact on development between the QEW and the rail line.

I'd argue that the lack of developable land along Hurontario will have a greater impact - but I'm just a planner. No one listens to me.