Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Fresh Start]

You have to think also, that if 15 minute bus ride seems so inconvenient for people, what they would think about an LRT line that stops as often as a regular bus.

And with any higher order transit line such as the Hurontario LRT, all stops are mandatory. Buses can skip empty stops, LRT can't, so stops had better have high ridership.

The overall stop spacing and the amount of stops recommended by either the consultant or Drum118 overall seems fine to me actually. Their recommended 600-700m average stop spacing is similar to the Bloor subway and the Yonge subway south of Bloor. The space along Yonge is much higher north of Bloor. I think that is important to consider.

So the problem I actually had is where the stops are distributed, and with both I feel there are too many north of Matheson. An industrial area doesn't need so many, since there is no 24/7 ridership. South of the QEW there are also too many stops for such a low density area with no potential for intensification.

I think the stops should be:

1. Queen/GO
2. Mineola
3. North Service
4. Sherobee
5. Paisley
6. Dundas
7. John/GO
8. Fairview
9. Elm
10. Burnhamthorpe
11. Robert Speck
12. Rathburn
13. Kingsbridge/Elia
14. Eglinton
15. Ceremonial/Nahini
16. Bristol
17. Matheson
18. Britannia
19. Courtneypark
20. Derry
21. 407/GO
22. Ray Lawson
23. Sir Lou
24. Steeles

Same amount of stops as the consultant and 6 less than Drum118. So an average 710m spacing, but 400-500m spacings between Eglinton and North Service, and approx 1km spacings in industrial and other low density sections.

This list is an improvement, but still some critical spacing errors. You excluded a station at Lakeshore Rd. Why North Service and Sherobee stops? This area could be serviced by a single stop located mid-way the two intersections.

For the MCC area I'm thinking we divert off Hurontario and loop SQ1 via Burnhamthrope and Duke Of York. This results in a station at B/thrope and Kariya Gt and another at DOY and City Centre Dr. I'm uncertain as to whether Robert Speck/10 needs a direct stop given the routing of # 3, 8, 26, 53 and 76. People will desire to go to the City Hall more. If anything we could have two alternate routings into CCTT, one including the RS stop. I don't think that CCTT should be overlooked. It's not easy to replicate an existing transit hub both for its infrastructure and preeminence in the public psyche. Patrons of the mall will also desire that connection.

Kingsbridge/Eglinton is another area where one station could suffice. The key with these stop spacings is to place the stop midway between two intersections as not to cause too much of a walking distance to destinations. A 6-8 bay bus terminal could actually be built into this location on the vacant property just south of the Swiss Chalet (this would be an underground station coming from going under the 403) whereby # 7, 10, 34, 35, 68 and 89 have a new residency away from CCTT.

Ceremonial/Nahani could be skipped given the frequency of the 10 and 19A/B buses and Bristol's platfrom area could extend down to Trailwood to minimize walking times. I agree with everything else up to Brampton.

Sir Lou/Ray Lawson is another case of over-coverage. One station mid-way minimizes walking times to both, with the s/b platform touching RL and the n/b adjacent to the courthouse. Steeles Stn could be underground with the Shoppers World bus terminal relocated 150m to the east. Northern exits would reach up to Bartley Bull. Moving on to Shontron's post, Elgin should be skipped. Nanwood's close enough especially if a pedestrian bridge extends over the park from the Elgin/Mill high rises. I also don't see the need for a Wellington stop prior to the downtown stop. Downtown Brampton Stn should be underground taking up the length from Queen to Neilson Sts, with below-grade direct access to the City Hall and surface exit to Gage Park. That's not even a 100m walk from the south end. Access to the bus terminal and GO station could recycle the existing transit building infrastructure with just a below-grade mezzanine with turnstiles required. A mini-PATH of sorts could occur here connecting local businesses and the Rose Theatre complex.

Probably my plan is a bit too ambitious (i.e. a miniature subway system through urban Mississauga and downtown Brampton using LRTs) but a guy can dare to dream.

 

[doady]

For the MCC area I'm thinking we divert off Hurontario and loop SQ1 via Burnhamthrope and Duke Of York. This results in a station at B/thrope and Kariya Gt and another at DOY and City Centre Dr. I'm uncertain as to whether Robert Speck/10 needs a direct stop given the routing of # 3, 8, 26, 53 and 76. People will desire to go to the City Hall more. If anything we could have two alternate routings into CCTT, one including the RS stop. I don't think that CCTT should be overlooked. It's not easy to replicate an existing transit hub both for its infrastructure and preeminence in the public psyche. Patrons of the mall will also desire that connection.

Kingsbridge/Eglinton is another area where one station could suffice. The key with these stop spacings is to place the stop midway between two intersections as not to cause too much of a walking distance to destinations. A 6-8 bay bus terminal could actually be built into this location on the vacant property just south of the Swiss Chalet (this would be an underground station coming from going under the 403) whereby # 7, 10, 34, 35, 68 and 89 have a new residency away from CCTT.

You want to preserve the "preeminence" of the CCTT by diverting the Hurontario LRT, and yet are willing to take several bus routes of it? 10/Kingsbridge is a very inconvenient location for a terminal. You force riders to transfer to the LRT and ride it for one stop just to connect to the BRT routes and the other regular bus routes, and to get to Square One.

Considering the 35, 89, 107, would there be any point to the 7 and 34 anymore if they no longer serve CCTT? And also, why divert 35 and 89 off of Eglinton? 35 and 89 should be straight lines as they are now, and I think the LRT should be too.

The only point of diverting the LRT would be for it to connect to the bus routes, but almost all the bus routes there now already intersect with Hurontario St anyways. Even the transitway will intersect with Hurontario. So what is the point a diversion?

]Sir Lou/Ray Lawson is another case of over-coverage. One station mid-way minimizes walking times to both, with the s/b platform touching RL and the n/b adjacent to the courthouse.

Both Sir Lou and Ray Lawson can have high ridership and development and the spacing between them is the same for the TTC subway, so I don't see the big deal. I think it is better for stops to be at intersections, rather than midway between intersections, to accommodate transfers from connecting bus services. And also it is more difficult to cross midway between intersections, and so stops located midway would be less accessible. This goes for Sherobee and North Service as well, though I would not mind the latter being moved to South Service as per Drum118's recommendation.

 

[drum118]

As along you live on Hurontario St itself, you can have the larger spacing. If you live a block or more on a grid road, it starts to fail. Since the blocks are longer than major of places in the first place, getting the equal spacing is not going to be easy.

Since Mississauga is made up of ring roads and Cul-de-sac not going to work for various locations. You are not going to get walkways to connect most of these roads without tearing houses down.

Since most of you like using a map and Google try this. Draw a line on either side of Hurontario at 400m and 500m and look what in that area as a road system. Then place your stops where you think they should be at.

Now draw your 400m and 500m radius. Even use the larger distance that some call for.

Start measuring the walking distance from the far point to see how far someone going to have to walk to your stops.

The first 3 meters from a person front door is going to tell them if they should stay in the car or not. It is a given fact that people start to stop looking at using transit that over a 10 minute walking distance is suburbia. The more it is, the greater chance they will use the car.

At the same time, the quality of service comes into play. Anything over 30 minutes is not meeting their needs and adding to the poor quality of life not only for them, but their family.

Mississauga was never plan around transit and that has been stated by everyone from the Mayor down running the city. To try to put transit in requires higher operating cost and redeveloping the major trunk routes.

You need to put yourself in that rider shoes to see if you like to walk 15-20 minutes to a transit stop at -30 in a snow storm and wait at a stop for the same amount of travel time.

As long as you think of yourself and not look at the big picture, you are not going to get people out of their cars with huge distance between stops.

At the same time, very few riders are going to be traveling the whole length of the LRT and therefore speed is not important as quality of service. 70% of riders using 19 are on the bus for no more than 15 minutes with the bulk of them between Dundas and Eglinton.

Again, you need to understand the route in the first place.

When I look at the Eglinton LRT stop spacing, 1,500m is going to be the norm walking distance for current riders. I have attended more than one open house as I want to hear what people are saying and they are saying walking distance is an issue.

Since not all of us have good health or legs, that walking distance is a barrier to them. Again up must put yourself in the shoes of someone using a walker, cane, hauling young children to/from stops. You maybe young today and think nothing about walking, but down the road it will be a different story.

As to the list above, North service Rd should be South service road as that is one hell of a waking distance between 2. Mineola 3. North Service of 1.28km in a straight line without adding in the waking distance from the side streets.

LRT's can skip stops if you have the bell like today on buses.

You still need a stop a Lake Shore as it going to cross it. I don't know how you plan on servicing GO on a slope road as it will have to be where it is now? This is one of those what the hell you do to service GO and a poor underpass. It a 5 minute waking distance to the GO station from Park St current stop. It is also do you take it south of Lake Shore and along Port St as proposed.

As an exercise, take all the major roads and bus routes and draw the 400-500m line on either side of the road, you will find a number of pockets where there is no service coverage today for weekday. Then remove all the routes that see no Sunday service and you have one hell empty hole where people cannot get to a transit road without doing a loooong walk. So much for transit in Suburbia Mississauga.

 

[Fresh Start]

You guys are acting like there won't be some form of local transit service overlap along sections of Hurontario after this line is built. When the average speeds of this new LRT start to get noticably slower than the existing 202 express bus service, we're in problems. Rapid transit routes have to be just that... fast, in order to be attractive, have mass appeal to the public to rely on it for everyday use and generate new customers. Wider gaps in LRT stop spacing can be justified by having local routes operating through the underserved/less coveraged areas. For the Eglinton to Derry stretch, several local routes could mind the gaps (10 Bristol, 65 Barondale, 25 Traders, and 15 Drew particularly if extended to World Dr). I mentioned previously a rerouting of the 8 Cawthra bus up to South Service Rd to compensate for the lack of service. The Harborn Stn that I've been describing could come with an extended walkway that reaches to the south side of the QEW, with accessible ramps for the handful of riders that may need that stop. There really is no point in getting overly invested in serving less dense, less trafficked areas when there's Point-A, Point-B commuters to be concerned about. When the GO train disembarks Port Credit Stn at a certain time, one had better catch it or else it's an hour til the next one. As harsh as that may seem to those stuck in the middle, its the latter set of transit users that are frequent repeat customers of the service and hence generate the most revenue for MT. Likewise in Brampton the 52 McMurchy bus connects both Sir Lou and Ray Lawson to Shoppers World and runs relatively frequent. But I suppose that case ain't a major cause for concern if the LRT's stopped by red lights regardless.

As for Kingsbridge in relation to Eglinton, and to SQ1. I don't see how customers are inconvenienced transferring off the 7/107 at the Marketplace rather than CCTT if the commute between the two points is faster via a traffic free LRT tunnel. At all times of the day it typically takes 4-5 minutes to navigate through all those frenetic traffic lights and sea of cars entering onto Rathburn off the 403. It's really a chore. In the tunnel it'd probably take little over a minute. And the 35 and 89 don't necessarily have to leave Eglinton in order to make use of the station. Alternatively to the Swiss Chalet backlot location there's also the vacant field on the NW corner of 10/Eglinton that could used (or perhaps minimalist bus terminals at both sites).

Lastly there is enough density (both in the form of on-site employees/office buildings and residents of the condo cluster that is centered around the general B/thrope-Confederation area) and trip-generators (Living Arts/Central Library/City Hall/SQ1) to make the diversion off of Hurontario well worthwhile. Remember that this is assuming the whole section south of Eglinton is built in a subway tunnel, so the need to stick rigidly to the street grid is lost. Being in a tunnel also brings home the need to be strategic with our stop spacings and locations. It'd truly be remarkable if Downtown Brampton to Port Credit's Lakeshore could be navigated within an hour.

 

[khris]

That's exactly it!
As I said yesterday. This is LRT, not a bus service. It can't have bus stops like a bus service.
Although it does depend how this will be set up. Will it be single cars like streetcars in Toronto, or LRT trains with multiple cars?
Longer trains should mean less stops, and single cars more frequent stops. I would prefer longer trains myself.

I also assume there will still be some form of bus service on Hurontario to take care of the more frequent stops?

Drum says that there needs to be more stops, because people won't walk to take transit. That is very incorrect. The reason people don't take the bus now, is because the service sucks, and it takes too long to get anywhere.
I'd rather walk 3 minutes to a stop, if the route I'm taking saves me 10 minutes to get to my destination.
If this is done right, the LRT will be passing traffic, while people sit in their cars in traffic jams and stoplights. That is ONLY if it's done right.

 

[TOareaFan]

It's not as bad as the old days with the Orenda Road scenic tour because the bus loop was so poorly designed. The new loop at least is closer to the platform, and with buses actually able to exit west onto Steeles, has shaved 6-7 minutes off the ride.

Yes, it was a pet peeve of mine too.

Yes it is better....when it had to go East to go north and then, invariably, waited just north of Steeles for people transferring from the "local" GO bus it was horrible...now it is just irritating.

Little improvements like that are what makes me try and temper my criticisms of GO....I have no doubt that they really are trying to fix things but sometimes you just have to wonder what is going on.

My biggest problem with that bus extension, now, is all the stops it makes....I mean it is a bus that is supposed to be a "temporary" extension of a train....so a point to point type service......why, just because there are poles with GO transit signs there, does it have to stop anywhere other than Downtown Brampton's GO bus/train terminal? Even eliminating those stops along the way might bring that trip a couple of minutes closer to the time a train would take.....anyway, hopefully, it will all be moot and the improvements in Brampton and Mt. Pleasant along with the bridges in between can bring the trains (and the people on them) into those stops.

 

[doady]

If the LRT would to have stop request it would be too much like the bus. It should be as close to rapid transit as possible, which means fixed stops.

Hurontario between Eglinton and QEW is very dense and mixed use, and people travel very short distances, so smaller stop spacing of okay here. But south of the QEW and north of Eglinton, the corridor is dominated by extremely low density single uses. People here are mostly passing though to get to Port Credit or Brampton or to transfer to another MT route. 200-400m spacing is not necessary in Mineola or in the industrial area and I thinkw oudl actually reduce the ridership.

As for Kingsbridge in relation to Eglinton, and to SQ1. I don't see how customers are inconvenienced transferring off the 7/107 at the Marketplace rather than CCTT if the commute between the two points is faster via a traffic free LRT tunnel. At all times of the day it typically takes 4-5 minutes to navigate through all those frenetic traffic lights and sea of cars entering onto Rathburn off the 403. It's really a chore. In the tunnel it'd probably take little over a minute. And the 35 and 89 don't necessarily have to leave Eglinton in order to make use of the station. Alternatively to the Swiss Chalet backlot location there's also the vacant field on the NW corner of 10/Eglinton that could used (or perhaps minimalist bus terminals at both sites).

But why have bus terminals at Eglinton and Kingsbridge in the first place? You also never justified the LRT serving CCTT.

Truncating 7, 34, 68 allow them to avoid congestion on Rathburn but is still a huge inconveniece to riders. There is no point. It still takes longer when people have to transfer for no reason. They have to get off the bus, walk to the LRT platform, and wait for the LRT. It is too much just travel such a short distance, especially if they have to transfer yet again at CCTT.

For Mississauga there are only 0.39 transfers for each fare paid. Even with the TTC, there is only an average 0.60 transfers for each fare paid. So do you really think forcing 2, or even just 1, transfers is really a good idea?

And then there are the vast majority of riders along Hurontario who will inconvenienced by the routing of the LRT to CCTT because of the 5 minute longer trip. Again, there is no reason for such a routing.

 

[hbl33]

But why have bus terminals at Eglinton and Kingsbridge in the first place? You also never justified the LRT serving CCTT.

Truncating 7, 34, 68 allow them to avoid congestion on Rathburn but is still a huge inconveniece to riders. There is no point. It still takes longer when people have to transfer for no reason. They have to get off the bus, walk to the LRT platform, and wait for the LRT. It is too much just travel such a short distance, especially if they have to transfer yet again at CCTT.

For Mississauga there are only 0.39 transfers for each fare paid. Even with the TTC, there is only an average 0.60 transfers for each fare paid. So do you really think forcing 2, or even just 1, transfers is really a good idea?

And then there are the vast majority of riders along Hurontario who will inconvenienced by the routing of the LRT to CCTT because of the 5 minute longer trip. Again, there is no reason for such a routing.

So even most of the transit network is subservient to CCTT?
Should the routing be then like this:

1. Queen/GO
2. Mineola
3. North Service
4. Sherobee
5. Paisley
6. Dundas
7. John/GO
8. Fairview
9. Elm
10. Burnhamthorpe
11. Kariya Gt./Dr.
12. Duke of York
13. City Centre/Living Arts
14. Square 1 City Terminal [HUB]
15. Rathburn
16. Kingsbridge/Elia
17. Eglinton
18. Ceremonial/Nahini
19. Bristol
20. Matheson
21. Britannia
22. Courtneypark
23. Derry
24. 407/GO
25. Ray Lawson
26. Sir Lou
27. Steeles

and addition to Downtown Brampton. Right? Similar concept of distance and stops, all estimated.

 

[doady]

CCTT = City Centre Transit Terminal, aka the bus terminal Square One

Again, I ask, why divert the LRT off Hurontario to serve the bus terminal at Square One when almost all the bus routes there and the transitway already intersect with Hurontario St?

 

[Fresh Start]

CCTT = City Centre Transit Terminal, aka the bus terminal Square One

Again, I ask, why divert the LRT off Hurontario to serve the bus terminal at Square One when almost all the bus routes there and the transitway already intersect with Hurontario St?

Except that the Transitway will be located at the current site of CCTT and not @Hurontario. There's nothing at Hurontario and Rathburn to serve. It's not even an intersection. Why would you want to subject commuters to getting off at such a random point and then have to await another vehicle in order make that connection? Is that not worse of a transfer issue than my proposal to take away some of the more Eglinton-centric routes away from SQ1, which would have at least avoid buses getting stuck in traffic in-between the 2 areas? I'd also like to know, based on your own analysis, since all the bus routes at CCTT would interface with Hurontario, what are patrons of the 7 bus transferring onto at SQ1 so badly that would make a one-stop transfer from Kingsbridge Stn so inconvenient for them? Even routes like #9, 61 and 66 are better accessed just going straight across Eglinton, so what is it? Only the 110, 20 and the GO Terminal would be cause for an immediate transfer.

You're making a lot of assumptions about who's willing to wait for infrequent bus connections into SQ1. You're also ignoring the mass of people who live and work right in MCC who would never have need for the bus if LRT stations are located within walking distance of them. That's why the diversion is well worthwhile. Underground stations at Elm, Kariya, City Centre/DOY and Rathburn @CCTT broaden the coverage area beyond what can be accomplished at Robert Speck and a very inconvenient transfer stop at Rathburn/Hurontario. It would market MCC as a major downtown with multiple mass transit stations in its core. You don't leave Ontario's largest shopping centre (i.e. major employment and revenue generator) without a direct connection when it very feasible to do so. Stopping at CCTT can recycle preexisting transit hub infrastructure, saving $$. And seeing as it is underground in its own ROW, it's hard to claim that diverting the LRT off Hurontario proper adds that much more time to intercity commutes, especially if many Bramptonians also desire access to these areas.

 

[khris]

According to page 11 of this document, there is going to be a BRT station at Hurontario & Rathburn. But the plans for the BRT show no stop there thus far, so I'm not sure what that's about.

 

[Dan416]

Maybe they should have built the City Centre Transit Terminal right at Rathburn and Hurontario from the the get go...

As for it not being an "intersection", it can always be de-grade separated.

 

[doady]

Except that the Transitway will be located at the current site of CCTT and not @Hurontario.

The transitway is a bus-only road, and yes it will intersect with Hurontario St at Rathburn.

There's nothing at Hurontario and Rathburn to serve. It's not even an intersection. Why would you want to subject commuters to getting off at such a random point and then have to await another vehicle in order make that connection?

This "random" point will allow a transfer to and from the transitway routes, which your Kingsbridge terminal does not.

It is your proposed Kingsbridge terminal that will force the extra transfer, not the Hurontario/Rathburn terminal. The latter connects to the transitway, and the former does not.

Is that not worse of a transfer issue than my proposal to take away some of the more Eglinton-centric routes away from SQ1, which would have at least avoid buses getting stuck in traffic in-between the 2 areas? I'd also like to know, based on your own analysis, since all the bus routes at CCTT would interface with Hurontario, what are patrons of the 7 bus transferring onto at SQ1 so badly that would make a one-stop transfer from Kingsbridge Stn so inconvenient for them?

Transfers are inconvenient, it is simple as that. That's the reason I don't support the Sheppard LRT. There is no point is forcing people to transfer just continue on in the same direction. But not only are proposing forcing people to transfer just to go in the same direction for ONE more stop. The cost of transferring is too high such a short distance, especially riders will have to make an addition transfer to get onto the transitway.

Even routes like #9, 61 and 66 are better accessed just going straight across Eglinton, so what is it? Only the 110, 20 and the GO Terminal would be cause for an immediate transfer.

Am I understanding you correctly? You are saying it is better to eliminate bus service along Rathburn West and reducing connections to Square One and the transitway (York U, UTM, airport) and direct people instead to the Kingsbridge terminal?

You're making a lot of assumptions about who's willing to wait for infrequent bus connections into SQ1.

I'm not making assumptions about anything. The City Centre Transit Terminal is the busiest transit terminal in the 905, even if you do not include the 19/102. You just have look at the masses of people at the terminal on any given day. People are there for reason and they got there somehow. The pre-BRT routes such as the 110 and the GO York U buses would be even close to the enormously success they are now if not for that.

Bottom line is, people are more far willing to wait for infrequent bus connections to Square One than they will be for infrequent bus connections to Kingsbridge and Eglinton.

You're also ignoring the mass of people who live and work right in MCC who would never have need for the bus if LRT stations are located within walking distance of them.

We are not talking about people who are living and working right in MCC. I don't see how taking most of the bus service out MCC would benefit those people. MCC can't be served by just one route and your diversion ignores all the office workers along Robert Speck...

That's why the diversion is well worthwhile. Underground stations at Elm, Kariya, City Centre/DOY and Rathburn @CCTT broaden the coverage area beyond what can be accomplished at Robert Speck and a very inconvenient transfer stop at Rathburn/Hurontario. It would market MCC as a major downtown with multiple mass transit stations in its core. You don't leave Ontario's largest shopping centre (i.e. major employment and revenue generator) without a direct connection when it very feasible to do so. Stopping at CCTT can recycle preexisting transit hub infrastructure, saving $$. And seeing as it is underground in its own ROW, it's hard to claim that diverting the LRT off Hurontario proper adds that much more time to intercity commutes, especially if many Bramptonians also desire access to these areas.

I really don't get it. You want to market MCC as a major downtown and yet you are willing to take almost all the bus service out of it. You want the LRT to be diverted to serve CCTT, but at the same time you want to reduce the importance of CCTT. You want the LRT to serve Square One better, but you propose a diversion that does not have a single stop that is closer to Square One than a stop at Robert Speck would be. You say peopel aren't willing to take the bus to Sq One, but propose that the buses go to Kingsbridge and Eglinton instead.

The Hurontario LRT is for the Hurontario/Main corridor, which is much, much more than just MCC. What you propose would inconvience pretty much all of the riders in the corridor, not to mention riders in other corridors.

 

[doady]

Maybe they should have built the City Centre Transit Terminal right at Rathburn and Hurontario from the the get go...

As for it not being an "intersection", it can always be de-grade separated.

If the LRT is underground here the connection will be no problem.

A CCTT at Hurontario and Rathburn would not served Square One. It is the onyl location connects to both the BRT and Square One. It would also be difficult for buses from the north to enter such a terminal.

 

[Tuscani01]

According to page 11 of this document, there is going to be a BRT station at Hurontario & Rathburn. But the plans for the BRT show no stop there thus far, so I'm not sure what that's about.

The map used for the site plan is the City Centre Land Use Map. It was created in 2002. Just ignore the BRT stop