Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

crs1026 said:
It's a damned if you do/damned if you don't proposition - I thought this was a clever call, in that it positioned ML as having some willingness to talk about fine details while sticking to its stated position - to dampen down the side that will predictably portray the Province as heavy handed.

However, as you noted, in a negotiation, this kind of last-minute concession does tend to entice the other side into testing how much more might be extracted - it's a signal that 'no' may not mean 'no'. The more skilful negotiator tries to have this discussion before one reaches the point of 'no blink'. Did this get any play in the 'facilitation' phase?

- Paul
Click to expand...
The ruse was apparantly played during the facilitation....apparantly this is how it played out

  • the rookie councilor who played the card apparantly approached some of the yes folks and asked if ML would consider the loop.
  • they "bit" and went back to ML who apparantly said yes.....
  • so they actually opened the council meeting (the part after the hours of delegations) with a motion to approve #HMLRT with the "reverse loop" thinking that is what he wanted.
  • right after that the motion (which finally won) to end it at Steeles and study other options was put on the floor
  • council rules are if there are two opposite motions you debate and vote on the first introduced first and then, only if it is defeated, you move directly to the other one......it was a set up.
  • during the debate/discussion the rookie announced he was going to support the 2nd motion...which led to the reverse loop amended motion (which ML said right at the meeting they would consider and might even pay for) being defeated.
In the post-vote public QA the rookie was asked if he "proposed" the idea of the reverse loop into the discussions....he said he would not call it a proposal but simply an exploration of whether the "yes" side and ML were open to amendments...by saying yes to that change (he said) they indicated they were open to changes.

Basically he said "would you sleep with me for a million dollars".....they said "yes"...he said "would you sleep with me for $50" ...they said "what kind of person do you think I am"...he said "we've already established that, now we are just haggling over price".

In the end....the killing motion was actually a 7-4 vote....with the Mayor surprising everyone by rising in favour of it.

The explanation on this amazing turn is....she was tired!

http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news-story/6059313-mayor-linda-jeffrey-nailed-for-lrt-u-turn/
 
Tuscani01 said:
Doubt it will flow to anyone else. It's not like the money actually exists. If anything, the rest of the HMLRT will eat it up as unexpected costs turn up over the next few years.
Click to expand...

I know a lot of transit advocates in other cities are jumping up and down for that $190 million. Metrolinx has the following non-GO/RER projects in its 15 year plan that are not committed to:
  • Yonge subway: Finch - Richmond Hill Centre
  • Downtown Relief Line: Dundas West - Pape
  • Don Mills: Highway 7 - Donlands station
  • A-Line: Downtown Hamilton - Hamilton Airport
  • B-Line: Queenston Circle - Eastgate Square
  • Burlington Connector: Downtown Burlington - Fairview
  • Dundas Street BRT: Brant Street to Kipling
  • Trafalgar: Highway 407 - Midtown Oakville
  • Highway 10: Mayfield West - Downtown Brampton
  • Hurontario-Main: Downtown Brampton - Shoppers World
  • Waterfront West: Port Credit GO - Union
  • Züm Queen: Downtown Brampton - Peel-York boundary
  • Viva Highway 7: Highway 50 - Helen, Unionville GO to Cornell
  • Finch West: Humber College - Pearson Airport
  • Eglinton: Mt Dennis - Pearson Airport
  • Highway 427 South: Kipling - Pearson Airport
  • Jane: Jane - Vaughan Metropolitan Centre
  • Viva Yonge: 19th/Gamble to Savage
  • Sheppard East: Don Mills - Meadowvale Road
  • Scarborough: Kennedy - Malvern
  • Highway 2: Scarborough Centre - Downtown Oshawa
  • Brock Road: Pickering Town Centre - Highway 407
  • Oshawa Connector: Oshawa GO - Downtown Oshawa
  • 407 Transitway: Halton - Durham
The bold and italicized items that could directly benefit Peel region, if there is interest in keeping the money in Peel.
 
@salsa......I may be wrong, but your post about routes sounded to me that you think I am advocating for any of them. I was simply answering a question posed "what does the NO side gain from last night".......I get the challenges with all of those routes and I have seen those maps gazillion times......specifically, I was not advocating for a Sheridan college...but just giving an example of a route that some (but not all) of the NOs advocate for.....the thing I found out last night (which I had no idea of) is that there are 10k students at that campus of Sheridan...so at least that particular NO lobby is trying to address that....again, not advocating for any of them....but was just answering a question.
 
TOareaFan said:
@salsa......I may be wrong, but your post about routes sounded to me that you think I am advocating for any of them. I was simply answering a question posed "what does the NO side gain from last night".......I get the challenges with all of those routes and I have seen those maps gazillion times......specifically, I was not advocating for a Sheridan college...but just giving an example of a route that some (but not all) of the NOs advocate for.....the thing I found out last night (which I had no idea of) is that there are 10k students at that campus of Sheridan...so at least that particular NO lobby is trying to address that....again, not advocating for any of them....but was just answering a question.
Click to expand...

I understood you. I was just providing my opinion on that route. However you have not been particularly supportive of the LRT to begin with (if I'm not mistaken).
 
salsa said:
I understood you. I was just providing my opinion on that route. However you have not been particularly supportive of the LRT to begin with (if I'm not mistaken).
Click to expand...
I have not been supportive of this LRT at all.....but my (personal) opposition has been based on techology not routing. Main reason I stayed away from delegating yesterday out of respect for people that wanted to debate the only thing being discussed last night (the route).

Of late I have described my opinion of this as "right route....wrong technology".
 
44 North said:
I get what you're saying, but at the same time think that might not be fully fair. Some areas it's easier to plan and prioritize transit, others it's not. And just because something was bundled under a kitschy name like Transit City or the Big Move at one moment in history doesn't mean it can't be given a second look.

And the Prov isn't squeaky clean with regards to its plans, either. Much of the Big Move can be equated to a vote winning exercise, what with funds and projects laid out in a fair and politically palatable fashion across the board regardless of merit (not unlike TC or Network 2011). Or forwarded unworkable proposals like Yonge North. Not to mention they rescinded $4bn of Toronto's funding out of the blue, and haven't met numerous priorities promised in the late '00s.
Click to expand...

That's true that the Province has been a bit haphazard about funding in the past. I think they learned their lesson with the Scarborough debate though: If you let Council's dick around with alternatives, they'll keep debating forever and nothing will get done. I think Scarborough was the last transit debate in the GTHA that we'll see drag on forever without Metrolinx putting their foot down, as they did here. The "We've spent years studying this. Take it or leave it." approach I think is the new norm.

salsa said:
The no vote had everything to do with avoiding Main Street at all costs. I guess now they will opt for one of these cockamamie "alternative routes", all of which staff have rightfully rejected.

Oh and by the way, here is what Sheridan College looks like. Like most parts of Brampton, it's a suburban hell hole but at least it is well served by the 12 bus routes that stop right in front of the buildings. An LRT stop on Steeles Ave is not an improvement. Not only does it force students to walk a lot more, it also adds several minutes of travel time for the rest of the passengers who are heading downtown.

View attachment 57974

If the city really wants an LRT to said hell hole, then they would be better off considering a dedicated LRT line on Steeles Ave that replaces the Zum 511 Steeles bus, but only after Queen St and Main St are built. Enough already with this gerrymandering nonsense.
Click to expand...

To be fair, colleges are huge trip generators. I'm at Mohawk now, and the number of students taking transit to school in the past few years has increased significantly. The proposed A-Line LRT route even has the line making a short jog off of James to serve the college, and then jumping back onto James south of it. Mohawk is also building an integrated transit station on the southwest corner of Fennell & West 5th, in order to increase efficiency and consolidate multiple stops in and around the campus into one centralized stop. There's no reason a HMLRT option that runs along Steeles couldn't route into an integrated transit loop at Sheridan.

Of all the anti-Main reasons that were presented last night (many of which are total BS), that one actually does have some merit to it. Serving college and university campuses with rapid transit has been a key factor in many other projects across the GTHA: Centennial College with the SLRT, UTSC with Durham Pulse, York U with the TYSSE, Humber with the FWLRT, McMaster with the B-Line LRT, Mohawk with the A-Line LRT. A few of those lines mentioned even terminate (or should terminate) at those campuses. I can't think of a single instance where a proposed RT line runs within a couple km of a major campus and doesn't directly serve it.
 
TOareaFan said:
There is a vote tonight...it is not on LRT or no-LRT, per se. It is on whether to accept the current proposed route. The only route that, according to ML, is on the table for discussion. Technically, no matter what happens tonight the LRT will make it to Brampton (ML has said a no vote tonight will see the HMLRT stop at Steeles which is well within Brampton).
Click to expand...

That's like saying Scarborough already has a subway because there's a vestigial stub extending a short distance into its lower regions. It's 100% disingenuous.
 
Forgotten said:
That's like saying Scarborough already has a subway because there's a vestigial stub extending a short distance into its lower regions. It's 100% disingenuous.
Click to expand...
didn't we have this discussion yesterday?

EDIT....oops, it was the same conversation with someone else...remarkably similar reply to my post so rather than retype my answer I will just ask you to flip back a couple of pages.
 
Last edited:
Hurontario-Main LRT is to serve Hurontario-Main, not to serve Steeles or McMurchy or McLaughlin.

Does McLaughlin or McMurchy have higher ridership than Hurontario and Main? See for yourself:

2 Main - 2,720
19 Hurontario - 20,554
103 Hurontario Express - 7,248
502 Zum Main - 9,244

66 McLaughlin - 4,474
52 McMurchy - 2,518

http://dmg.utoronto.ca/pdf/tts/2011/validation2011.pdf#42

It seems like Downtown Brampton and the GO station should be the priority, not Sheridan. Although Main isn't a great corridor, similar to Hurontario south of QEW. LRT there also is just to connect to Port Credit and the GO Train. But those are the best options nonetheless.

Hurontario-Main is by far the busiest and most successful bus corridor in 905 and it doesn't serve any college or university campus. People should just accept that. If they want BRT or LRT to Sheridan, I thought that was what 511 Zum Steeles was for. But I guess I was wrong.
 
TOareaFan said:
I have not been supportive of this LRT at all.....but my (personal) opposition has been based on techology not routing. Main reason I stayed away from delegating yesterday out of respect for people that wanted to debate the only thing being discussed last night (the route).

Of late I have described my opinion of this as "right route....wrong technology".
Click to expand...

Which technology would you prefer? (Honest question)
 
doady said:
Hurontario-Main LRT is to serve Hurontario-Main, not to serve Steeles or McMurchy or McLaughlin.

Does McLaughlin or McMurchy have higher ridership than Hurontario and Main? See for yourself:

2 Main - 2,720
19 Hurontario - 20,554
103 Hurontario Express - 7,248
502 Zum Main - 9,244

66 McLaughlin - 4,474
52 McMurchy - 2,518

http://dmg.utoronto.ca/pdf/tts/2011/validation2011.pdf#42

It seems like Downtown Brampton and the GO station should be the priority, not Sheridan. Although Main isn't a great corridor, similar to Hurontario south of QEW. LRT there also is just to connect to Port Credit and the GO Train. But those are the best options nonetheless.

Hurontario-Main is by far the busiest and most successful bus corridor in 905 and it doesn't serve any college or university campus. People should just accept that. If they want BRT or LRT to Sheridan, I thought that was what 511 Zum Steeles was for. But I guess I was wrong.
Click to expand...

But are those numbers because of the trip generators on that part of Main, or is it because the system is set up in such a way that Main is the main connector between Downtown Brampton and Mississauga? I would suspect that many of those trips are there not because it's Main Street, but because it's where the express/frequent service happens to be. Between Downtown Brampton and Shoppers World, there's nothing to drive any kind of substantial ridership. Main is simply the straightest line and the path of least resistance for those services.

The real question is how many people would say "screw this" if an extra couple of minutes were added between Shoppers World and Downtown Brampton, vs how many people would take the LRT that wouldn't if it didn't served Sheridan and the hospital? I suspect that the ridership increase from hitting those two trip generators would be larger than the decline in ridership because of the slightly more indirect route.
 
doady said:
Hurontario-Main LRT is to serve Hurontario-Main, not to serve Steeles or McMurchy or McLaughlin.

Does McLaughlin or McMurchy have higher ridership than Hurontario and Main? See for yourself:

2 Main - 2,720
19 Hurontario - 20,554
103 Hurontario Express - 7,248
502 Zum Main - 9,244

66 McLaughlin - 4,474
52 McMurchy - 2,518

http://dmg.utoronto.ca/pdf/tts/2011/validation2011.pdf#42
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this document. I couldn't find the Brampton Transit ridership numbers anywhere. Using this I just slapped down some troll on Twitter who supported ending the LRT at Steeles--that was fun.

BTW, those asking for Queen LRT before Main should look at that document and see that Main ridership is 39,766 while Queen is 22,243. But that would be logical and that doesn't fly in my wonderful backwater hometown of Brampton.
 
Duck said:
Which technology would you prefer? (Honest question)
Click to expand...
Warning......not gonna get into a big discussion about this as people who have been with this thread for yea are tired of hearing it and have said so.........bu when I read the reports on this line I says BRT to me.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top