Toronto Hullmark Centre | 167.94m | 45s | Tridel | Kirkor Architects

sunnyraytoronto said:
Edited for content - ST

If OMB approved Tridel Hullmark Centre as is, why would there even by a community information meeting? OMB gets final say regardless of city of Toronto and local community concerns. Tridel Hullmark Centre would just proceed with their construction plans.

Community information meeting is part of the application process and is required from the city of Toronto whenever a project goes against the city rules for the area (ie zoning changes). But if a project complies with all city of Toronto rules,... no community meeting is required.

Why even have another Tridel Hullmark Centre community information meeting? Obviously, it's not to discuss the exact same thing that was discussed previously,... like proposing 164m tower in area with 100m limit and proposing residential condo towers in area designated for 0% residential (Area A). Tridel Hullmark Centre must have significant changes to their project to discuss with the community. Since Tridel Hullmark Centre is hoping to break ground this fall, they're probably be discussing a much shorter Tridel Hullmark Centre along with concessions and amenities for the community (hey, that's the way the game is played).

The fact that there will be another Tridel Hullmark Centre community information meeting means that they're still in violation of city rules for the site. My guess, it's the Area A (0% residential) that's still being violated and they've knocked down the both towers to less than 100m.

Seriously, did anyone really expect the Tridel Hullmark Centre to be built at 164m when the area height limit is 100m? Even the other condo residents are complaining! BTW, with the north-east wye directly under the both towers of Tridel Hullmark Centre and originally engineered with 100m buildings in mind, it would have been prohibitively expensive to re-engineer it for 164m towers.
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I stand by Hullmark Centre remaining @ 164 m towers, it would look terrible (and impossible to provide sufficient floor space hence loss revenue to implement mixed use office + retail + residential as proposed) within 100 m structures, PLUS it would be a waste of a landmark location (Yonge+Sheppard) which has DIRECT connection to 2 subway lines, there aren't many locations like that in Toronto !!

YES ... I fully expect Hullmark Centre to be built @ 164 m, it makes sense at the location ... it is obscure from a city building standpoint to have a FLAT 100m limit to NYCC, there should be hierarchy in the skyline

of course residents of Minto Gardens are complaining, Hullmark Centre when built will be shadowing + blocking their view !! when people move into Minto Gardens, the become a 'part' of the community ... how are they different than other residents who live in single detached houses in that area ? it is not unreasonable to expect their reaction, much like other NIMBYs in the area

the northeast wye below Hullmark Centre is in fact NOT within Tridel's development limits, review their site plan closely and you will see that corner is being used for a public square only and a very small portion used for the office lobby extension, you can even see the tunnel outlined with dotted lines ... their designer placed the building specifically away from the tunnel ... so your comment on 'engineered for 100m building' does not apply here

masterplan_700.jpg


sunnyraytoronto said:
Directly east of Tridel Hullmark Centre is Minto Garden's Radiance with 33 floors,... at 98m,... originally Area A 0% residential but was OMB for residential use.
http://www.urbandb.com/canada/ontario/toronto/minto_gardens_east/

Empress Walk is close to 100m limit,... with 32-33 floors building itself is about 100m,... but both towers have large artistic pinnacles on top bringing total height to 116m-118m. Empress Walk developer had to give the city and community many concessions to build residential on a site zoned for offices, originally Area A 0% residential.

Gee,... I wonder what concession Bazis Emerald Park and Tridel Hullmark Centre can offer the community.

Why can't Bazis Emerald Park and Tridel Hullmark Centre be built within the 100m limit for the area? I think the Bazis Emerald Park design is much better overall than Tridel Hullmark Centre,... but I do perfer how Tridel Hullmark Centre's interface with the street level,... the Yonge Dundas square look will bring some excitment to the area. But both residential towers of Tridel Hullmark Centre is way to plain,... seems the designers never put much effort and creativity into the design of the residential towers,... most likely because they know it'll never be built at 164m anyways.
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the benefits Hullmark Centre will bring includes:
  • a Yonge Dundas Square type urban public space
  • redeveloped commercial space that has aged
  • provide for a high density development including significant office floor space (within the 10 storeys podium)
  • improved built form and streetscape in NYCC

it appears you like the public space proposed by Hullmark Centre, but not the tower above it ... do you expect anyone to just 'pay for' the development of public spaces and not 'make profit' from the associated project? basically you are asking developers to build the portion the community likes (plaza), and don't build portions the community dislikes (towers) ... I suppose who cares about the developer's profits :confused: ... frankly I don't think that is how business works

think about it ... if you were the developer, would you hire + pay architects to design something that you know would never get built ?
 
I was told that the Ring road would be completed but I don't see how that will be. Is Anndale Drive part of that ring road?
 
yes ... the 'plan' is to extend Annadale to connect with Yonge, and to extend Doris south to connect to Annadale to create a 'ring' road (so to speak)
 
that is correct, I believe those houses have been expropriated by the City and most owners have moved out already ... the only residents left are liking 'leasing back' their house from the City in the interim until it is demolished
 
if you are referring to houses SW of Annadale + Tradewind, that is being redeveloped by Menkes for the Savvy Condos project ... but houses SE of Annadale + Tradewind should be staying (they are out of the North York Centre Secondary Plan boundary, which is the limit for high density development)
 
Solaris said:
it appears you like the public space proposed by Hullmark Centre, but not the tower above it ... do you expect anyone to just 'pay for' the development of public spaces and not 'make profit' from the associated project? basically you are asking developers to build the portion the community likes (plaza), and don't build portions the community dislikes (towers) ... I suppose who cares about the developer's profits :confused: ... frankly I don't think that is how business works
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Go to the Tridel Hullmark Centre site,.. south-east corner of Yonge & Sheppard,... then walk 5-7 minutes north to the south-east corner of Yonge & Empress,... right across Yonge Street from North York City Centre and Mel Lastman Square. Ahhh, let me introduce you,... this is Empress Walk developed by Menkes Development.

Why is Menkes Development's Empress Walk significant here? Menkes Development's Empress Walk faced pretty much the same situation in the mid 90's that Tridel Hullmark Centre now faces. Proposing residential development within Area A (0% residential allowed) with Yonge Street frontage and subway access. City was strict about only wanting commercial offices buildings on Yonge Street frontage.

Take a look at those two Menkes Development's Empress Walk 32-33 storey condo towers,... both 100m tall,... add the artistic designed "pinnacles" on their roof top and these condo towers are about 116m. Take a nice little walk inside the Menkes Development's Empress Walk mall in the podium,.... now walk over to the back where Doris Street is,... oh dear, what's this,.... a public park right behinds Menkes Development's Empress Walk! :p Geee,... public space provided by the developer, Menkes Development,.... AND they were able to basically stay within the 100m limit :p ,... those are really huge "pinnacles" pushing the condo towers to 116m. And that seems to be the rule with regards to 100m height limit in the downtown North York area, none of the residential nor office part of the building exceed 100m height limit but if there is artistic merit with the roof design then that roof part only may exceed the 100m limit. :rolleyes:

Gee,.. if Menkes Development can do that at Empress Walk,.... why can't this developer keep the Yonge-Dundas square public space,... and still build Tridel Hullmark Centre within the 100m limit??? :eek:

How was Menkes Development's Empress Walk project able to convince the city to allow residential towers on land originally zoned as Area A (0% residential). Empress Walk developer had to give the city and community many concessions to build residential on a site zoned for offices, originally Area A 0% residential.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Walk
- rebuild Earl Haig Secondary School
- rebuild McKee Public School
- rebuild Mitchell Field Community Centre
- re-align Doris Avenue to prevent thru-way traffic in a residential area connecting Bayview Avenue and Yonge Street.

Hmmmmm,.... Menkes Development Empress Walk project was able to 'pay for' a small public park behind Empress Walk,... 'pay for' rebuild Earl Haig Secondary School, 'pay for' rebuild McKee Public School, 'pay for' rebuild Mitchell Field Community Centre (BTW,.. really nice pool & indoor hockey rink!) and 'pay for' re-align Doris Avenue,... and since Menkes Development is still around and still building condo development in the North York area,... I say Menke Development was still able to 'make profit' on Empress Walk,... AND build Empress Walk without grossly exceeding the 100m height limit. :eek:

What has Tridel Hullmark Centre offered to the city so far? The southern strip of their site for an extension of Anndale Drive to meet Yonge,... for part of the eastern side of the North York downtown service road? :confused: The city have already finished widening Avondale Avenue from Yonge Street to Tradewind Avenue to serve as the linkage between Yonge Street and the eastern side of the North York downtown service road.

There are good developers and there are bad developers,...




Solaris said:
think about it ... if you were the developer, would you hire + pay architects to design something that you know would never get built ?
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Question is,.... "if you were the developer, would you hire + pay architects to design something" grossly exceeding the area height limit "that you know would never get built"? Yes,.. why, because developer want a tall building to maximize their own profit,... if developer think realistically, they might be able to get approval for 120m building in the end,... at first, developer will ask for a lot more,... and hope to negotiate down to 120m. Look across the street at Bazis Emerald Park,... originally asking for 49 & 40 storey,... now down to 39 & 30 storey,... and still too high! It really doesn't cost the developer much to design a building these days,... just copy it from another project (like Bazis Emerald Park being a reuse of their tower design in Astana, Kazakhstan,... and where is Kazakhstan exactly?). Since most floor design are the same,.. the cost of adding and chopping floors on the "design table" is minimal,... especially with the software they use.
 
Ummer said:
I was told that the Ring road would be completed but I don't see how that will be. Is Anndale Drive part of that ring road?
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Doris will be extended south of Sheppard Avenue East,... just east of those buildings (45 & 47 Sheppard Avenue East),.... then join Tradewind Avenue. The southern end of the eastern North York Service Ring Road is Avondale Avenue,... the city have already finished widening Avondale Avenue from Yonge Street to Tradewind Avenue. It's been widen at Yonge from 2 lanes to 4 or 5 lanes. This was finished within the last few years,... maybe 3.

It's only been within the last couple of years, that they've been talking about extending Anndale Drive,... and making it part of the eastern North York downtown service ring road,... thus the eastern North York downtown service ring road will have TWO main southern links to Yonge Street,.... Avondale Avenue and Anndale Drive.

Thus Anndale Drive doesn't NEED to be a part of the eastern North York downtown service ring road,... it's a nice to have,... but not a requirement,... city already has Avondale Avenue as southern link and it's already been widened.
 
sunnyraytoronto said:
What has Tridel Hullmark Centre offered to the city so far? The southern strip of their site for an extension of Anndale Drive to meet Yonge,... for part of the eastern side of the North York downtown service road? :confused:

There are good developers and there are bad developers,...
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Buddy If this ressission lasts for a couple of years you will find the city will be offering perks to the developers instead of the other way around, in these rough times you should be happy and jumping for joy that a bunch of legitimate developers want to build in that area.
 
sunnyraytoronto said:
There are good developers and there are bad developers,...
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frankly if developers behind Hullmark Centre qualify as 'bad developers', I don't know if ANY good developers exist, other than Menkes in your mind ... that company has built and earned its reputation for a reason (and no I don't work for Tridel) :p

Automation Gallery said:
Buddy If this ressission lasts for a couple of years you will find the city will be offering perks to the developers instead of the other way around, in these rough times you should be happy and jumping for joy that a bunch of legitimate developers want to build in that area.
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thank you the reality check ... this is something sunnyraytoronto needs ~
 
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