Hamilton Hamilton Line B LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

DonValleyRainbow said:
Good. I hope Hamilton and other cities start lining up to support Metrolinx's original plans for LRT or BRT in their cities, just to stick it to Brampton.

I'm normally not one for being bitter and vengeful, but in cases like Brampton and Toronto where councils turn down rational transit planning and funding commitments for them, then I think sending a clear message is necessary.
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Fair enough, the thing I think we sometimes forget is that one thing is the capital cost of building the line, but adding LRT to an agency brings along a bunch of other costs like maintenance, and upkeep of those tracks, trains, the storage yard, etc. It's free capital funding but if the Municipality is really on the fence about being able to maintain and operate the line then it's better that someone else get the money.
 
mdrejhon said:
Good point; the needed composition and forging may not be local.

In the late 1970s, trains were in decline.
That's no longer the case, with GO, VIA, LRT expansions (and about to possibly accelerate, too).

Thought: Is it economically viable to start producing local rail steel again, given rail expansion?
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How much realistically would rails for a few Km lines here and there really benefit a steel company, I'm almost hesitant to imagine that any high-rise building in Toronto probably uses more steel than LRT tracks? Would love to be educated on this.
 
BMO said:
How much realistically would rails for a few Km lines here and there really benefit a steel company, I'm almost hesitant to imagine that any high-rise building in Toronto probably uses more steel than LRT tracks? Would love to be educated on this.
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Possibly over a thousand km. Or two!

VIA expansions
New VIA rail corridor is being discussed as possible target of Trudeau's government funding.
($4 billion dollars). This involves several hundred kilometers of new track.

LRT projects
Several funded different LRT projects in Ontario -- Ottawa Confederation Phase 1(funded)/2(mostly funded), Waterloo ION, Hurontario, Hamilton, Finch West, Crosstown. Half of these already under construction. Future funds allocated for Sheppard East, Scarborough, and unfunded projects London LRT, Jane Street LRT, East Bayfront LRT, etc. Given the twin-track nature, this is easily, combined, half a thousand kilometers worth. So if only a few projects come to fruititon, that's still a couple hundred kilometers. (Note: I'm not sure how much of a proportion has been ordered already -- but I think Ottawa Phase 1, Crosstown, and ION has ordered most of their rail already. But that still leaves a whole batch of new LRT projects waiting in the wings).

GO expansions
There are major GO expansions, due to GO RER electrification ($13.5 billion). Both Barrie and Stoufville are being twinned or tripled in various locations. Several hundred kilometers of new track will be added in parallel to existing track.

So math it out, totalled, potentially a couple thousand of kilometers of new rail steel needed in Ontario! In worst case scenario (two-thirds cancellation), that's still several hundreds of kilometers. This doesn't include potential high speed trains which are finally now being a bit more seriously looked at, though probably won't begin construction late 2020s or early 2030s at the current glacial pace.

IMHO, this is sufficiently large scale enough to at least look at starting-up new rail steel manufacturing.

Now a good business case analysis is needed to see whether it's economically feasible to do so, and if Hamilton still provides sufficient steelmaking capacity to feed into such a rail steel manufacturer. The proximity may compensate for higher manufacturing cost (...i.e. Ontario electricity...), and may be worthwhile given the uptrend.
 
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I'm quite sure if it's worth the while of any Canadian steel manufacturers, they will simply submit the lowest bid. Not sure anything else need saying.
 
mdrejhon said:
Possibly over a thousand km. Or two!

VIA expansions
New VIA rail corridor is being discussed as possible target of Trudeau's government funding.
($4 billion dollars). This involves several hundred kilometers of new track.

LRT projects
Several funded different LRT projects in Ontario -- Ottawa Confederation Phase 1(funded)/2(mostly funded), Waterloo ION, Hurontario, Hamilton, Finch West, Crosstown. Half of these already under construction. Future funds allocated for Sheppard East, Scarborough, and unfunded projects London LRT, Jane Street LRT, East Bayfront LRT, etc. Given the twin-track nature, this is easily, combined, half a thousand kilometers worth. So if only a few projects come to fruititon, that's still a couple hundred kilometers. (Note: I'm not sure how much of a proportion has been ordered already -- but I think Ottawa Phase 1, Crosstown, and ION has ordered most of their rail already. But that still leaves a whole batch of new LRT projects waiting in the wings).

GO expansions
There are major GO expansions, due to GO RER electrification ($13.5 billion). Both Barrie and Stoufville are being twinned or tripled in various locations. Several hundred kilometers of new track will be added in parallel to existing track.

So math it out, totalled, potentially a couple thousand of kilometers of new rail steel needed in Ontario! In worst case scenario (two-thirds cancellation), that's still several hundreds of kilometers. This doesn't include potential high speed trains which are finally now being a bit more seriously looked at, though probably won't begin construction late 2020s or early 2030s at the current glacial pace.

IMHO, this is sufficiently large scale enough to at least look at starting-up new rail steel manufacturing.

Now a good business case analysis is needed to see whether it's economically feasible to do so, and if Hamilton still provides sufficient steelmaking capacity to feed into such a rail steel manufacturer. The proximity may compensate for higher manufacturing cost (...i.e. Ontario electricity...), and may be worthwhile given the uptrend.
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Don't forget the (potential) building of a rail line from Thunder Bay area to the Ring of Fire in the James Bay Lowlands. Although the Prov kinda screwed the pooch on the issue, I think it's still a possibility.
 
mdrejhon said:
Possibly over a thousand km. Or two!

VIA expansions
New VIA rail corridor is being discussed as possible target of Trudeau's government funding.
($4 billion dollars). This involves several hundred kilometers of new track.

LRT projects
Several funded different LRT projects in Ontario -- Ottawa Confederation Phase 1(funded)/2(mostly funded), Waterloo ION, Hurontario, Hamilton, Finch West, Crosstown. Half of these already under construction. Future funds allocated for Sheppard East, Scarborough, and unfunded projects London LRT, Jane Street LRT, East Bayfront LRT, etc. Given the twin-track nature, this is easily, combined, half a thousand kilometers worth. So if only a few projects come to fruititon, that's still a couple hundred kilometers. (Note: I'm not sure how much of a proportion has been ordered already -- but I think Ottawa Phase 1, Crosstown, and ION has ordered most of their rail already. But that still leaves a whole batch of new LRT projects waiting in the wings).

GO expansions
There are major GO expansions, due to GO RER electrification ($13.5 billion). Both Barrie and Stoufville are being twinned or tripled in various locations. Several hundred kilometers of new track will be added in parallel to existing track.

So math it out, totalled, potentially a couple thousand of kilometers of new rail steel needed in Ontario! In worst case scenario (two-thirds cancellation), that's still several hundreds of kilometers. This doesn't include potential high speed trains which are finally now being a bit more seriously looked at, though probably won't begin construction late 2020s or early 2030s at the current glacial pace.

IMHO, this is sufficiently large scale enough to at least look at starting-up new rail steel manufacturing.

Now a good business case analysis is needed to see whether it's economically feasible to do so, and if Hamilton still provides sufficient steelmaking capacity to feed into such a rail steel manufacturer. The proximity may compensate for higher manufacturing cost (...i.e. Ontario electricity...), and may be worthwhile given the uptrend.
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This is a joke, right?

I don't think that you appreciate just how saturated the rail rolling market is, and how small potatoes in the grand scheme of things all of the work in Ontario will be. Not to mention that you've listed at least two different rail profiles and possibly three, which will require likely millions of dollars of set-up for each.

A thousand km of rail is a really shitty year to a mill.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
This is a joke, right?

I don't think that you appreciate just how saturated the rail rolling market is, and how small potatoes in the grand scheme of things all of the work in Ontario will be. Not to mention that you've listed at least two different rail profiles and possibly three, which will require likely millions of dollars of set-up for each.

A thousand km of rail is a really shitty year to a mill.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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...and the Sault Ste Marie steel plant has just filed for bankruptcy. It's not economical to produce steel in a province with high electricity prices. We have reduced our own coal production by sending the coal, the ore, the jobs and the pollution to other countries.

By lowering electricity prices for manufacturers we could bring these jobs and the steel production back to Ontario. But lower energy prices means different sources of energy and increase pollution in Ontario (with a similar decrease in pollution in another country). The fallacy of trying to tax pollution without taxing the pollution on imports in action.
 
I was at this meeting to do a presentation along with Alain [PowerPoint]. (Our advocacy was invited to do a presentation)

A more accurate article is this one.
http://m.thespec.com/news-story/6154491-lrt-on-schedule-but-vigilance-needed-councillors

That said, the tone of Mr. Ferguson is useful to keep things moving along. He sometimes say newspaper-headline-worthy things, but it also creates alarmist headlines. This above is a balanced perspective, and that it helps rouse things in motion, but is not currently late per se, to expected milestones.
 
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DonValleyRainbow said:
So what the heck is Main and James going to look like? Are transfers between the B and A lines going to be at the southwest corner, or at the B-Line stop?
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The LRT is definitely on King St, not Main St.

Yes, many think it will be on Main (and there are good reasons that it could have been on Main; but too late) -- but that's east of Delta only. It's on King when west of Delta Station. The Metrolinx-Hamilton EA was on the King LRT, and this is the only route that the $1bn funding is approved for.

Currently, that is Gore Park Station -- the name of the station already on Metrolinx proposed route map.

Provisionally, the proposed B-Line LRT stop at King and James will be at the very edge of Gore Park, in the north-west corner of the park (south-east corner of intersection). The current plans from the earlier 2011 EA is that the B-Line LRT tracks are flush at the south edge of King, hugging Gore Park. This makes it ideal to have people disembark into the park.

I have no idea about the A-Line, but I would imagine that if the A-Line is flush against the east edge of James St South, it would utilize a platform at the west edge of Gore Park. This makes interchanging quite convenient.

I would imagine probably a higher-order pedestrian path will also be between this and the MacNab bus terminal, like an overhead shelter over the crosswalk, for a dry 100 meter walk between the LRT interchange and the bus terminal.

Putting LRT on King will almost defacto force a Main 2-way discussion, and also the possibility of a pedestrian-only International Village. Mixed traffic in the narrowed International Village, as well as the narrowed revitalized section of James (north of Wilson), is also a possible discussion. (My personal opinion: Pedestrian IV for the B-Line. And then mixed-traffic-north-of-Wilson James St N or the James-Hughson loop idea, for the A-Line).

During 2016, there will be study/EA adjustments to refine everything, including fine-tuning exact station locations. For example, I predict Gage Station will probably end up ultimately being relocated 2 blocks eastwards to serve Tim Horton's Field better. Or an additional station created between Sherman and Gage, to serve both the stadium and the new school about to be built. Besides, Gage Station doesn't directly serve Gage Park due to its alignment -- it's the subsequent Delta Station would be the station that directly serves Gage Park.
 
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Probable station configuration for A-Line / B-Line interchange

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(My quick artwork, based on best knowledge from 2011 study)

It is already almost definitively confirmed that both King tracks will be flush towards the south side. Back in the 1950s and earlier, the streetcar station was right here too, so this is the natural location for the LRT station anyway, about 100 meters west of MacNab.

For B-Line, there would be a middle-of-road platform for the other track (For A-Line, it is not currently decided of A-Line track configuration so it's assumed a east-side flush on James St for more favourable interchange ability.

Aside note (my own note) -- Naturally, you'd want overhead weather protection while walking to MacNab Bus Terminal, only 100 meters away. This is solved by a simple covered King St crosswalk on the on the south side. It could even become a milepost entrance, similar to the "Downtown Hamilton" entrance in the International Village, but to commemerate the revitalization of James St N.

There is room for a 2-car or 3-car consists (10 or 15 segments driven by 1 driver) on the B-Line at Gore Park LRT station. For the A-Line, it would be highly probable that the A-Line LRT station would use sole vehicles (1 LRV, no linking) as that would be more appropriate. Station sizes in diagrams seem to show provisions on B-Line for 2-car consists (3-car consists would be way overkill for Hamilton until further downtown densification, anyway). Pre-designing the stations for 2 LRV vehicles sounds reasonable, even if we initially start out with sole LRV vehicles and run 2-LRV consists during peak and events.
 
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Having a southside-eastside config as above is probably going to limit the directions in which vehicles can move between A and B lines, no? Especially if these are "standard LRVs" without Toronto downtown cars turning radius capabilities.
 
When is construction going to start and what's the projected opening date?
 
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