Markham GTA Centre | ?m | ?s | GTA S. and E. | BBB

Sorry I'm a bit out of the loop. But what is the locationb of the intended downtown Markham? Is it at Warden and Hwy 7?
 
TOareaFan said:
The problem with relying on concerts is that the arena/landlord makes very little of the money. The typical concert model is that the promoter guarantees the act a certain amount of money for the show...so the act has little risk....the promoter negotiates a "rental fee" for the facility so the facility has little risk but not much earnings....the promoter is the one that sets the ticket prices (based on the economics of the show, in part related to the above two things) and the promoter makes the profit on the night.

EDIT: BTW....the ACC is not at "capacity"....I think they book something in the order of 225 - 250 nights.....so there is space there...not a great deal of flexibility (particularly October - April)....but space yes.

You may, indeed, be able to put 200 shows a night into the arena (doubt it would be that high but maybe) but I doubt it would be enough to justify a >$300 million expenditure! If it were so (ie. if the economics of an arena were independant of a sports tenant) don't you think one would have been built in the GTA by now?
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Good points! I do agree that this really is a gamble on getting an NHL team on many levels.

I don't think the need for another 20,000-seat arena would have been there 10 years ago, but with the GTA growing by about 100k a year, I think the market is there now. I mean we're basically growing by an Edmonton every decade give or take, and as was mentioned before, we're the largest metro region in North America without two large arenas (if you don't count Copps).
 
canarob said:
Good points! I do agree that this really is a gamble on getting an NHL team on many levels.
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Precisely. The point is that a municipal government is making that gamble with $162million of taxpayer money without (IMO) revealing all of the "facts". Quite the opposite they are flat out, bold faced, saying this is nothing to do with getting an NHL team. Not sure about Markham but in most municipalities this level of disengenuousness is frowned upon.

canarob said:
I don't think the need for another 20,000-seat arena would have been there 10 years ago, but with the GTA growing by about 100k a year, I think the market is there now. I mean we're basically growing by an Edmonton every decade give or take, and as was mentioned before, we're the largest metro region in North America without two large arenas (if you don't count Copps).
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I think we in the general public tend to lump the concert business into one big pile and assume it is very homogenus. The fact is there are varieties of acts and needs for arenas.

Unlike a lot of cities, we have a full range of venues and a greater mix (I would suggest) of indoor venues (which are the biggest segment of the market).

For shows that expect under, say, 5k in attendance we have the Oshawa Arena, Powerade, Hershey and the indoor concert venues (Massey and the like).

For shows in the 5 - 10k range we have the ACC (in its shrunk down "half bowl set up - which works quite well) and Ricoh (can be up to 7k in concert mode).

Shows in that 10 - 20 range we have the full ACC and (during the outdoor season) the Molson Ampitheatre and (as people found out last year) the Rexall Tennis Centre (got rave reviews for its concert series).

Above 20k we have Rogers Centre which (unlike a lot of "stadium venues) has the ability to be, both, an indoor and outdoor venue.

This new Markham venue will compete in, I guess, the 5 - 20k segment which (to my eye) seems to be the most competitive segment of the market. I really understand why Live Nation wants this....it will, ultimately, drive down the rental fees for those shows (leaving a bit more promoter profit).

Competition is good....as a fan, I like it. Again, as a taxpayer I would be saying "is this a good risk with my tax dollars?"
 
What's the season for the amphitheater and Rexall, four to six months? I would think the demand for space over the cooler part of the year would be high in the 10-20k range.

Also I wonder about hosting Asian pop stars, Bollywood shows, etc? There's a large audience along the 407 corridor.

I think people underestimate how well the 407 connects the 905. I see comments like "it's only near a toll highway" that imply that people don't use the 407. Even people up here who mostly use transit like me have transponders. People who can afford to go to a concert or game will pay the tolls. Moreover, the 407 transitway will eventually provide better transit service to the corridor.
 
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canarob said:
What's the season for the amphitheater and Rexall, four to six months? I would think the demand for space over the cooler part of the year would be high in the 10-20k range.

Also I wonder about hosting Asian pop stars, Bollywood shows, etc? There's a large audience along the 407 corridor.
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Sure there is....the Powerade Centre has tried a few of those shows...and while they were well attended by Powerade standards I don't think they have sold out. Powerade holds 5k.

Yes the season for the Ampitheatre and Rexall is limited but my point simply was that there are venues in Toronto and this new arena is not guaranteed clear sailing on bookings.

I feel (for some reason) to point out that I am not actually "against" this arena being built. In fact, quite the opposite. I hope it does get built. I just don't think it is a lock to be financially successful....in fact I think if they don't get an NHL team it is pretty much a guaranteed money loser.

I just think that if I were a Markham taxpayer I would be asking for a lot more financial transparancy than is being offered and if I lived in Markham my support for this arena (on purely financial matters) would be significantly lower than it is as someone not from Markham.
 
It's all good, man -- you're raising a lot of strong points.

Live Nation is apparently saying it could bring concerts to the arena 131 nights a year. You had mentioned earlier that the ACC is full 225-250 nights a year. An idea what the maximum an arena could realistically be booked? Presumably you'd have to eliminate some public holidays and allow days for large acts to set up, etc.
 
canarob said:
It's all good, man -- you're raising a lot of strong points.

Live Nation is apparently saying it could bring concerts to the arena 131 nights a year. You had mentioned earlier that the ACC is full 225-250 nights a year. An idea what the maximum an arena could realistically be booked? Presumably you'd have to eliminate some public holidays and allow days for large acts to set up, etc.
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In the arena business "nights" aren't necessarily calendar days. Because you can sometimes have more than one event in a day you can exceed 300.....but I think the only place that realistically does that is MSG (although the Staples centre must be close).

I was talking about this recently with someone who would/should know and they thought the ACC makes financial sense at its 225-250 events. Keep in mind, though, 80-100 of those are Leaf/Raptor games where they get/control all of the revenue.

I would expect an arena that was all concerts would need substantially more than 131.....that sounds good for Live Nation but not the foundation for an over $300million arena. Again, particularly if it is dependant on taxpayers risking over $160million.
 
ALRIGHT HERE WE GO.......
Step one: Liberals pass Provincial budget to initiate modernization of OLG - COMPLETE
Step two: Approve the proposal by GTA Sports and Entertainment to build new 20,000 seat arena - COMPLETE
Step three: Make "official" proposal to OLG to build new GTA casino in Downtown Markham - PENDING

Many of you have expressed valid points about the risk associated with the Town's financing strategy associated with this deal. However, there are three ways to decrease the financial risk that they have taken on.

1. Increase the economic success of Downtown Markham/Markham Centre - The more successful Markham Centre becomes, the less risk will be assiciated with the arena deal (i.e economic success will secure planned revenue sources such as parking levies, development fees, etc.)

2. Increased property tax revenuse from new developments in Markham Centre - Marginal increase in property tax revenues that the Town will see from all the NEW residential and commercial units that will spring-up in Markham Centre will decrease the financial risk of the arena deal.

3. Additional revenue source from CASINO BABY!!! - WHEN the new GTA casino opens up in downtown Markham, it will create a new revenue source that will in turn decrease the financial risk from the arena.

Everything is falling into place my friends!
I'm sure many of you have read that one of the concerns was that Council was "rushing" this through. That is why a motion to defer 60 days was brought up (but defeated). Why do you think they are rushing this? Is it possible that they need to include it in some sort of proposal they will be making soon? If only we had a forum where someone from Downtown Markham could tell us what was going to happen....lol

Soon this will be your typical night in downtown Markham.....you go for dinner at a world-class restaurant, go see a concert/show or NHL game, do some shopping at a high-end retailer, the kids go see a movie at the VIP Cineplex while you go to the casino, and you all meet after by the park before you leave. (There are many other possible combinations of typical nights). Soon, Downtown Markham will be seen as a beacon of economic growth in the GTA.
 
I posted a comment on the Casino thread I think you'll like ;)

I honestly don't think they're related in the slightest from the provinces point of view, having an arena doesn't do anything to make the Casino more or less compelling, potentially less in some ways actually.


I'm not saying it won't happen btw! I'm just saying I don't think it gives them a better case. I do think they'll try for it though, why wouldn't they !


So downtown Markham could have a stadium / giant sports facility / and casino / I'd imagine a theater may go hand and hand with the later. Stop mentioning the ciniplex ), they're everwhere, and the VIP format ones aren't great at all, heck there was one near by but they're going to close it.
 
taal said:
I posted a comment on the Casino thread I think you'll like ;)

I honestly don't think they're related in the slightest from the provinces point of view, having an arena doesn't do anything to make the Casino more or less compelling, potentially less in some ways actually.

I'm not saying it won't happen btw! I'm just saying I don't think it gives them a better case. I do think they'll try for it though, why wouldn't they !

So downtown Markham could have a stadium / giant sports facility / and casino / I'd imagine a theater may go hand and hand with the later. Stop mentioning the ciniplex ), they're everwhere, and the VIP format ones aren't great at all, heck there was one near by but they're going to close it.
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Maybe the two are not related from the provinces point of view, but it sure does make a better case for Markham in the public's eyes. The casino and arena would complement each other well and I think many in Markham will see that. Also, as I previously posted, a casino in Markham Centre would add an additional revenue stream for the Town. That could be promoted as a way to decrease the financial risk taken on by the Town in the arena deal.

We already have a theatre in Markham Centre....it use to be called "Markham Theatre", but last I heard the Town had sold the name to a developer and it's now called Flato something....
I like mentioning the VIP Cineplex because I believe that it will be an intricate part of Downtown Markham. When 2015 arrives, the VIP Cineplex will be one of the dominate structures on the landscape sitting two blocks west of the arena. When 2020 arrives, many more buildings will be up, but the Cineplex will still be important.
 
I may be biased, but I don't see how a second GTA arena of this size works anywhere outside Toronto (Downsview, etc...), other than in Mississauga. Yes, Markham is growing, but Peel is already 1.3 million people with a larger corporate base to tap into, as well as easier access to larger populations west of the city. Pearson airport is a few km from the Mississauga core and other modes of transportation are also better in/out of where a potential arena would go (MCC).

Markham can have its casino, but any second arena of this size - if built at all considering the many venues we have, but if it is to eventually house a 2nd NHL team - should either be in Toronto proper, or in Mississauga.

I can see it at the SE corner of the SQ1 property, directly across the street from Absolute. It's a major transit hub already, with LRT going onto Hurontario, the 403 2 lights up, and all other forms of transit close by (GO bus, GO train, Mississauga Transit and the new bus-way running parallel with the 403, going to the airport and into Toronto via Eglinton.
 
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taal said:
So downtown Markham could have a stadium / giant sports facility / and casino / I'd imagine a theater may go hand and hand with the later. Stop mentioning the ciniplex ), they're everwhere, and the VIP format ones aren't great at all, heck there was one near by but they're going to close it.
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The Cineplex is still a relatively big deal. Think of Richmond Hill Centre, the theatres are really what anchor it.
 
Marko said:
I can see it at the SE corner of the SQ1 property, directly across the street from Absolute. It's a major transit hub already, with LRT going onto Hurontario, the 403 2 lights up, and all other forms of transit close by (GO bus, GO train, Mississauga Transit and the new bus-way running parallel with the 403, going to the airport and into Toronto via Eglinton.
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You, or I, can "see it" on any corner we might like but the fact is that a developer with land, found a business partner and a municipal partner that were willing to share in their vision and approve the deal.

The debate over where the best place for a second 20k arena should be is all a bit moot now. Markham has the partner, the land and the guts (misplaced or not) to borrow $162.5million to see this through.
 
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