Toronto GO Transit: Davenport Diamond Grade Separation | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[crs1026]

Maybe I’m just too European, but I think that 50 mph is an insane speed for a train operating without the LE at the controls having a view onto the tracks and signals in front of him. Even more so without any train control systems installed. Just the fact that you can apparently override general speed limits through operating rules just exemplifies how deranged the safety culture is in this country…

I recently discovered (last to know as always) that ML now requires VIA trains backing between Union and the TMC to display a ditch light on the rear coach. That suggested that they aren't crazy about the backup moves, especially with so much construction happening around Exhibition that puts track workers close to or on the ROW.
Having a crew member on the back end to call signals is not a huge risk between Mimico and Fort York, assuming the employee protecting the shove has an emergency brake valve. The sightlines are good and the signalling is progressive so there is ample warning of a restrictive indication ahead. If the signal were to drop suddenly - the tail end emergency brake is the same lever that the engineer would pull, so no diminished control.
I feel differently about the portion of the trip through the many turnouts east of Fort York. Very easy for a verbal clearance or signal call to be overlooked or "walked on" on the radio, or for the engineer to hear it badly, every second matters in that zone with the train potentially overshooting a red and (given the high volume of traffic) potentially entering the path of another train before it can stop. Presumably signal indications are more restrictive and the Canadian moves slower in that zone, but it's a risk that might not be advisable.

- Paul

 

[SkylineHorizons]

You won't get to the Bala Sub that way, but - after unloading at Union, an inbound #2 could head out the Galt Sub, back down the wye at Obico (if that track were reinstalled), back down to Canpa onto the LSW, and then enter the TMC pointed eastwards. So it's properly pointed before the shop receives it.

A bit awkward to seesaw across the LSW, however. The earlier method for wyeing was to take it all the way to Bayview.

So far this change is just a rumour, and I'm wondering who is said to have asked for it. Does ML or Oncorr want No 1 off the Newmarket? Is CN wanting No 1 off the York Sub? Is the connecting track at Snider to be removed? I'm wanting a bit more confirmation on this one.

- Paul

I can’t go into details, but the reverse crawl (at 15 mph) from TMC to Union and the move along the Newcastle Sub during the day (with a subsequent reverse move at Snider) are much more disruptive to ML/OnCorr (or CN) than an additional wyeing move around TMC/Canpa and revenue move along the Don Valley would be…

Hopefully somebody asked CP about this. CN/MX/OnCorr may not like it but none of them have the final say in the matter.

I was under the impression that a 15 mph limit applies for all trains which are not lead by an LE at the controls. In Germany, this limit is 30 km/h (19 mph), or 20 km/h (12 mph) over unprotected crossings, and anything above that speed doesn’t strike me as particularly safe:

Answered you own question - Both head end crew members on VIA trains are LE's. An LE understands the braking capabilities of a train regardless of his postion(or at least one would hope that he would! lol). The throttle is not the most important thing, the brakes are - the rule requires that the train can be stopped from the 2nd LE's position on the rear car and indeed he can quickly access and initiate the emergency brakes if ever needed from there.

 

[Urban Sky]

Answered you own question - Both head end crew members on VIA trains are LE's. An LE understands the braking capabilities of a train regardless of his postion(or at least one would hope that he would! lol). The throttle is not the most important thing, the brakes are - the rule requires that the train can be stopped from the 2nd LE's position on the rear car and indeed he can quickly access and initiate the emergency brakes if ever needed from there.

That indeed sounds slightly less insane, but where in the Park car’s bullet lounge is said emergency brake valve? In any case, the fact remains that any train lead by neither a locomotive nor a cab car would be limited to 30 km/h in Germany - and I have all reasons to assume that there are good reasons for that limit…

 

[EnviroTO]

Of Options 3-5, Option 4 is the least likely, in my opinion. Even wyeing at Bayview will be more appealing to VIA than alienating its tour operators by abandoning the flagship (i.e., Park) car on its flagship train…

Wasn't VIA recently putting a dummy car at the back of the train due to concerns about the crash worthiness of these aging cars? At some point it would make sense to find a new creative way to give sweeping views of the front and back of the train with a fleet that isn't heavy and ancient.

 

[Krypto98]

That indeed sounds slightly less insane, but where in the Park car’s bullet lounge is said emergency brake valve? In any case, the fact remains that any train lead by neither a locomotive nor a cab car would be limited to 30 km/h in Germany - and I have all reasons to assume that there are good reasons for that limit…

As far as im aware in freight, shove moves with a conductor riding the point are limited to 25 mph. I thought that would be the case with the a movement nor led by a locomotive or cabcar such as the Canadian or non-siemiens equipment moves.

 

[Urban Sky]

Wasn't VIA recently putting a dummy car at the back of the train due to concerns about the crash worthiness of these aging cars? At some point it would make sense to find a new creative way to give sweeping views of the front and back of the train with a fleet that isn't heavy and ancient.

VIA’s long-distance fleet is in desperate need of replacement (the buffer car episode was something like a final warning) and what happens once it is finally retired is everyone’s guess, but as long as VIA has Prestige Park cars in its fleet, it will operate the Canadian unidirectionally…

 

[smallspy]

Maybe I’m just too European, but I think that 50 mph is an insane speed for a train operating without the LE at the controls having a view onto the tracks and signals in front of him. Even more so without any train control systems installed. Just the fact that you can apparently override general speed limits through operating rules just exemplifies how deranged the safety culture is in this country…

Perhaps this is an unpopular opinion, but I think that you are overthinking this somewhat.

- There is still a requirement to have someone on the leading end of the movement, even if they are not in "control".
- They are required to be able to signal to the crewperson operating the train. VIA uses a whistle that is attached to the brake pipe.
- This same whistle also allows that crew member to "dump" the air in an emergency.

That they've been operating this way since the TMC opened (so,30+ years) without incident tells me that while yes, at first blush it does seem crazy, a lot of thought - and training - has gone into the process.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

That they've been operating this way since the TMC opened (so,30+ years) without incident tells me that while yes, at first blush it does seem crazy, a lot of thought - and training - has gone into the process.

Longer than that, even, in the sense that passenger trains have backed into terminals (and through complicated interlockings with many different routes that the engine driver can't necessarily be sure of from the cab) since forever. Bayview to Hamilton on CN being a good example, Glen Yard to Windsor Station being another, and old Spadina coach yard to Union also.

I don't know exactly when the communicating whistle was disconnected (LRC's were delivered without them, but did the last of the b/y cars still have them to the end?) but the transition to radio clearances happened a long time ago. The CROR has kept pace with that change, and plenty of special instructions have been written around shoving situations.

TMC to Mimico is a bit of a one-of because a) no grade crossings to protect and b) the employee protecting the shove is riding inside the car, unlike freight where they may be riding on a very high-risk car end, and c) signalled throughout, and d) potential for mid-shove diverging paths is a finite set of possibilities.

All the same, the issue is not, have we done it that way (as @Urban Sky notes, the railway safety culture on this continent is stuck with that mindset)..... it's how do we want it done in the future, with ever diminishing tolerance for risk. And things like PTC on the horizon. So if we have a hint that the practice may be discontinued, that may be for the better, even if it has been in place for a hundred years.

- Pau

 

[lexaprofessional]

I'm really curious about what any of this has to do with the Davenport Diamond Grade Separation......

 

[smallspy]

I don't know exactly when the communicating whistle was disconnected (LRC's were delivered without them, but did the last of the b/y cars still have them to the end?) but the transition to radio clearances happened a long time ago. The CROR has kept pace with that change, and plenty of special instructions have been written around shoving situations.

- Paul

The fixed whistle ceased to exist with the B&Y cars. I'm not even sure that the Tempo cars had one. And the Park Car still retains its for backup moves.

But the whistle itself still is used each and every day- there is a removable one that plugs into the gladhand, and is hung off of the safety bar at the back of the consist.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

The fixed whistle ceased to exist with the B&Y cars. I'm not even sure that the Tempo cars had one. And the Park Car still retains its for backup moves.

But the whistle itself still is used each and every day- there is a removable one that plugs into the gladhand, and is hung off of the safety bar at the back of the consist.

Dan

I was referring to the communication line that had valves generally on the ceiling of the vestibules, pretty sure there was one at the back of the Park cars as well, (behind a door in the window sill to the right of the rear door as one looked out the door).

I'm not sure of the mechanics (pretty sure it was a separate and secondary hose connection between cars, but maybe it just made slight trainline pressure reductions) but it triggered a whistle in the locomotive cab. Point being, it was used to give whistle signals to the engineer. That's how passenger trains were spotted and stopped and started before radio. Backup moves into terminals would have relied on those signals - no voice or explicit signal calling, just keep going or stop. (There were specific signal codes for many other commands, such as apply or release brakes for brake tests, shut down the steam line, and to confirm the head end's attention when train was approaching a meeting point in timetable and train order meets).

RDC's had a buzzer circuit with pushbuttons over the corridor door.

The fixed backup whistle and emergency brake valve was built into cabooses also, but whether detachable or fixed it did not provide a signal to the engine (other than if the emergency valve was opened, dumping the trainline).

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

I'm really curious about what any of this has to do with the Davenport Diamond Grade Separation......

It may be time this discussion takes a stroll elsewhere, indeed, until such time as corroborating evidence for the Canadian’s future disappearance from GO Newmarket emerges (albeit that information therein is quite interesting)

 

[smably]

Walked past here yesterday on Bloor for the first time in a while. North side walkway is open to pedestrians and the space for the future pedestrian bridge is now visible.

On the south side, the railing is installed. It looks pretty utilitarian, TBH. I think it would look much nicer painted a crisp black.

 

[vic]

Walked past here yesterday on Bloor for the first time in a while. North side walkway is open to pedestrians and the space for the future pedestrian bridge is now visible.

On the south side, the railing is installed. It looks pretty utilitarian, TBH. I think it would look much nicer painted a crisp black.

View attachment 531851

They used black for the other underpass just west of here (between Perth and Dundas). Much better. Still like the old iron(?) railings that were used in these underpasses since 1925ish.

 

[Metroscapes]

They used black for the other underpass just west of here (between Perth and Dundas). Much better. Still like the old iron(?) railings that were used in these underpasses since 1925ish.

Even corten steel would be better.