Toronto GO Transit: Davenport Diamond Grade Separation | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[dowlingm]

I'm wondering how using Canpa to access CP trackage gets a train to the CN Bala sub but no doubt somebody will explain the routing.

If the Canpa could be used to wye the train while out of service, then Canadian could face east at Union and head up the GO Richmond Hill route to CN Bala

 

[dowlingm]

So far this change is just a rumour, and I'm wondering who is said to have asked for it. Does ML or Oncorr want No 1 off the Newmarket? Is CN wanting No 1 off the York Sub? Is the connecting track at Snider to be removed? I'm wanting a bit more confirmation on this one.

it’s interesting all right because given the Diamond works on the Newmarket to date, one would think the time to have done it was before now if it was a Metrolinx ask.

So maybe OnCorr, or that OnCorr is making changes for itself that VIA is taking advantage of? One would imagine there is some attraction in saving time for an entire on-train crew, not to mention the passenger impression from the backing and wyeing so early in the trip.

 

[Urban Sky]

You won't get to the Bala Sub that way, but - after unloading at Union, an inbound #2 could head out the Galt Sub, back down the wye at Obico (if that track were reinstalled), back down to Canpa onto the LSW, and then enter the TMC pointed eastwards. So it's properly pointed before the shop receives it.

A bit awkward to seesaw across the LSW, however.

As someone who has watched the switiching moves at TMC to better understand the challenges when changing the composition of the Canadian in Toronto, these cars are dropped off or picked up from the west by cutting the consist before picking up or setting off any cars, as required. Not sure that can also be done from the east, but I would assume that the actual wyeing move is done during low-traffic periods and not immediately after arrival of Train 2…

 

[crs1026]

As someone who has watched the switiching moves at TMC to better understand the challenges when changing the composition of the Canadian in Toronto, these cars are dropped of from the west by cutting the consist and picking up or setting off any cars, as required. Not sure that can also be done from the east, but I would assume that the actual wyeing move is done during low-traffic periods and not immediately after arrival of Train 2…

Interesting, I hadn't realised that. I can see how switching with the train pointed west is more practical at TMC.

I suppose one could reverse the process - arrive directly to the yard, but dispatch the outgoing No 1 by backing out up the Canpa and wyeing at Obico, then running eastwards in a forward orientation to Union. That's still a seesaw across the LSW, and a slight but material impact on CP.

I would think that one would not want to create a new task for the shop (ie wyeing at a distance) that eats up the turnaround time and requires yard crew hours. All of the remaining wyes in Toronto (CP West Toronto, CN Halwest, CN/ML Snider, CN Doncaster, CN Bayview) would require a time consuming out and back movement, and impact freight operations.

Operationally, the backup move at Snider isn't pretty but I suspect CN would prefer it to a wyeing move at Doncaster.

Makes me a bit curious why someone is tinkering with a good thing, and whether VIA is happy about the prospect. After CN having pushed VIA into a poorer deal at Halifax, my spidey senses are tingling, but maybe I'm a bit too cyncial.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

I can’t go into details, but the reverse crawl (at 15 mph) from TMC to Union and the move along the Newcastle Sub during the day (with a subsequent reverse move at Snider) are much more disruptive to ML/OnCorr (or CN) than an additional wyeing move around TMC/Canpa and revenue move along the Don Valley would be…

 

[crs1026]

I can’t go into details, but the reverse crawl (at 15 mph) from TMC to Union and the move along the Newcastle Sub during the day (with a subsequent reverse move at Snider) are much more disruptive to ML/OnCorr (or CN) than an additional wyeing move around TMC/Canpa and revenue move along the Don Valley would be…

Senior's moment - I'm old enough to remember how, after the construction of the CN Tower, which severed CP's John Street loop track, CP laboriously turned the Canadian consists car by car on the John St turntable. Happily, we won't be heading back to that era.

Building a wye at Canpa is an interesting proposition, but not that easy, as land might not be easily acquired.

The interesting thing about the Obico wye theory is how much headroom VIA would need at either end to turn a maxed out Canadian consist. I grew up just up the road, and worked at a couple of industries beside those tracks, but I never imagined seeing the Canadian there. Even back then, that seemed like pure fantasy. Never say never, I guess.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

I can’t go into details, but the reverse crawl (at 15 mph) from TMC to Union ....

What reverse crawl?

Reversing passenger trains are allowed to operate at 50mph on that stretch of the Oakville Sub, and have been since the TMC opened.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

What reverse crawl?

Reversing passenger trains are allowed to operate at 50mph on that stretch of the Oakville Sub, and have been since the TMC opened.

Dan

I was under the impression that a 15 mph limit applies for all trains which are not lead by an LE at the controls. In Germany, this limit is 30 km/h (19 mph), or 20 km/h (12 mph) over unprotected crossings, and anything above that speed doesn’t strike me as particularly safe:

 

[smallspy]

I was under the impression that a 15 mph limit applies for all trains which are not lead by an LE at the controls. In Germany, this limit is 30 km/h (19 mph), or 20 km/h (12 mph) over unprotected crossings, and anything above that speed doesn’t strike me as particularly safe:
View attachment 531105

And in most cases, that is exactly how it is here, too.

But as there are no level crossings on the stretch between Mimico and Union, a rule was enacted for just that stretch that allowed reversing trains to operate much faster than was otherwise permitted.

Dan

 

[dowlingm]

A rule like that would be understandable where a reasonable and proximate alternative did not exist, but if the north end Canpa>Galt curve is being reinstated for other reasons, perhaps risk assessments at TC, VIA, or Metrolinx triggered a fresh assessment, especially given the probable increase in traffic density within the USRC as various capital investments are made operational?

 

[crs1026]

A rule like that would be understandable where a reasonable and proximate alternative did not exist, but if the north end Canpa>Galt curve is being reinstated for other reasons, perhaps risk assessments at TC, VIA, or Metrolinx triggered a fresh assessment, especially given the probable increase in traffic density within the USRC as various capital investments are made operational?

Any backup move in the USRC is fundamentally worrisome, given the number of closely spaced signals to be passed (and via radio calls at that), and (should GO ever have some form of PTC) possibly unworkable. VIA and GO will be almost completely double ended soon, and the Canadian becomes an exception (and a long one).

The Canpa move is doable, especially in the middle of the night....but at other hours it means crossing a four track main line.

Pick your poison, I guess. I can certainly see the case for requiring control from the leading end in both directions.

- Paul

 

[Metroscapes]

Any backup move in the USRC is fundamentally worrisome, given the number of closely spaced signals to be passed (and via radio calls at that), and (should GO ever have some form of PTC) possibly unworkable. VIA and GO will be almost completely double ended soon, and the Canadian becomes an exception (and a long one).

The Canpa move is doable, especially in the middle of the night....but at other hours it means crossing a four track main line.

Pick your poison, I guess. I can certainly see the case for requiring control from the leading end in both directions.

- Paul

I'll also point out that a back-up move in the USRC without an LE at the front was a major factor in a 1997 collision at Union. Report here.

 

[Urban Sky]

And in most cases, that is exactly how it is here, too.

But as there are no level crossings on the stretch between Mimico and Union, a rule was enacted for just that stretch that allowed reversing trains to operate much faster than was otherwise permitted.

Dan

Maybe I’m just too European, but I think that 50 mph is an insane speed for a train operating without the LE at the controls having a view onto the tracks and signals in front of him. Even more so without any train control systems installed. Just the fact that you can apparently override general speed limits through operating rules just exemplifies how deranged the safety culture is in this country…

 

[EnviroTO]

The rumor attached to VIA not using the Barrie line... did it speculate property acquisition to build a wye on Canpa at the Mimico yard?

The options are:

1. new wye at Canpa (add connection from Canpa to East) [land acquisition and new track, eliminate train reversing]
2. new north to East connection at Snider junction [land acquisition and new track]
3. Use Halwest [slightly longer trip maybe]
4. changing the consist of the train so that most cars operate in the opposite direction east to west vs west to east, and use the existing yard wye (New Toronto Street / prior Campbell's soup access) to reverse the engines.
5. Wye via Canpa and CP.

I would think that options 3-5 are more likely and that of those option 4 is most likely.

 

[Urban Sky]

The rumor attached to VIA not using the Barrie line... did it speculate property acquisition to build a wye on Canpa at the Mimico yard?

The options are:

1. new wye at Canpa (add connection from Canpa to East) [land acquisition and new track, eliminate train reversing]
2. new north to East connection at Snider junction [land acquisition and new track]
3. Use Halwest [slightly longer trip maybe]
4. changing the consist of the train so that most cars operate in the opposite direction east to west vs west to east, and use the existing yard wye (New Toronto Street / prior Campbell's soup access) to reverse the engines.
5. Wye via Canpa and CP.

I would think that options 3-5 are more likely and that of those option 4 is most likely.

Of Options 3-5, Option 4 is the least likely, in my opinion. Even wyeing at Bayview will be more appealing to VIA than alienating its tour operators by abandoning the flagship (i.e., Park) car on its flagship train…