Forma | 308m | 84s | Great Gulf | Gehry Partners

UtakataNoAnnex

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...with all due respect, this behind the scenes notion has certain degree being stuck in a seemingly perpetual state, as that claim has been made for a number of years now. I can understand that building projects of this magnitude don't spring up over night. But there's also a reasonable point that the parties involved should either take the dump, or get off the pot on this. As everyone outside of this, seems to be getting strung along, IMO.

Or tl, dr: This project feels like it's become our building industry's version of vaporware. /sigh
 

Mike in TO

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But there's also a reasonable point that the parties involved should either take the dump, or get off the pot on this. As everyone outside of this, seems to be getting strung along, IMO.

Without getting too specific - all I'll say is that "the parties involved" have not been consistent the last several years - which certainly has an impact on a variety of aspects for the project.

I'm also not sure whom is "getting strung along" - if you are outside the project... you are outside the project.
 
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Northern Light

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...with all due respect, this behind the scenes notion has certain degree being stuck in a seemingly perpetual state, as that claim has been made for a number of years now. I can understand that building projects of this magnitude don't spring up over night. But there's also a reasonable point that the parties involved should either take the dump, or get off the pot on this. As everyone outside of this, seems to be getting strung along, IMO.

Or tl, dr: This project feels like it's become our building industry's version of vaporware. /sigh

Just for reference, @Mike in TO is an insider. Someone very knowledgeable with what's going on the development industry. Not in that, I'm interested in architecture or urban planning kind of way; the direct knowledge kind of way.

I am always thoroughly pleased to see him post here, which unfortunately is far less often than it used to be.
 

Big Daddy

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But what we see now is already a revised proposal, which would leave one to assume that GG is intent on building something similar to the original vision would it not?

I think it's fair to say that GG bought a great site in a great city - but has no intention of building anything like what Gehry Proposed.
it's too complicated and too expensive for them and really, in Toronto, you don't have to build anything so dramatic. You can build any box and sell it here. Just look at what else is being built. There's
nothing dramatic or exciting (except maybe The One) getting built. I believe GG will resubmit something similar to the Concord buildings currently under construction on Bathurst,
Tall rectangles of no real consequence. And others are also correct, it's unlikely Gehry will get to participate in the project any further.
 

Northern Light

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I think it's fair to say that GG bought a great site in a great city - but has no intention of building anything like what Gehry Proposed.
it's too complicated and too expensive for them and really, in Toronto, you don't have to build anything so dramatic. You can build any box and sell it here. Just look at what else is being built. There's
nothing dramatic or exciting (except maybe The One) getting built. I believe GG will resubmit something similar to the Concord buildings currently under construction on Bathurst,
Tall rectangles of no real consequence. And others are also correct, it's unlikely Gehry will get to participate in the project any further.

While any or all of that is possible.

You have offered zero evidence to support any of it.

With the exception of the odd project (see Yonge+Rich) GG has had a good track record on architecture in this town.

I am concerned they've slipped a bit, but am not yet ready to throw them under the proverbial bus.

Either way, speculation is fine. But outside of a fantasy thread it really ought to have some substance to support it.

If you have that, please do offer.

Else-wise your post lacks requisite credibility.
 

Big Daddy

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While any or all of that is possible.

You have offered zero evidence to support any of it.

With the exception of the odd project (see Yonge+Rich) GG has had a good track record on architecture in this town.

I am concerned they've slipped a bit, but am not yet ready to throw them under the proverbial bus.

Either way, speculation is fine. But outside of a fantasy thread it really ought to have some substance to support it.

If you have that, please do offer.

Else-wise your post lacks requisite credibility.


No, I have no "evidence" other than the fact that they slept through the biggest Condo boom in Toronto's history.
I'm in real estate and right now a lot of investors are divesting of their condo investments. Rents are dropping and many, many buidings have a high vacancy rate - only to be made worse by
a plethora of new buildings delivering soon.
.
I Believe this is temporary, however, many professionals are now working from home and many students (Ryerson and Uof T) are learning online - much of this will change once covid is under control - but not all of it.
Many will continue to work from home and these tiny, tiny units are too claustrophobic for that. I'm doing a lot of deals (people moving out of downtown Toronto) where
people are moving to peripheral town like Kitchener/Waterloo and Guelph where one can live in a good sized apartment or townhouse and if necessary, GO train into the city once in a while.
Long term, the demand will return downtown, but likely not like it was. As such it seems likely GG (currently carrying the purchase of the property) may try to cut back on the drama
and cost of this project in any way it can. This would also help to explain the delay as many people still remember the original project, but this will fade over time.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my perspective on this long overdue project.
 
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UtakataNoAnnex

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Without getting too specific - all I'll say is that "the parties involved" have not been consistent the last several years - which certainly has an impact on a variety of aspects for the project.
Fair enough. At least it gives us a little clearer insight without having to name names.

I'm also not sure whom is "getting strung along" - if you are outside the project... you are outside the project.
While I find this a bit dismissive in nature, I'm not going to get into it. As I don't think there is any point to it other than to say you sorta answered your own question in that. However, I stand by what I said.

Just for reference, @Mike in TO is an insider. Someone very knowledgeable with what's going on the development industry. Not in that, I'm interested in architecture or urban planning kind of way; the direct knowledge kind of way.

I am always thoroughly pleased to see him post here, which unfortunately is far less often than it used to be.
I get that. So I am glad he answered. And I couldn't agree with you more on the last part.

Either way, thank you both for taking the time to answer my concerns. And sorry if I came off a bit venting in that. /bows
 

isaidso

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Reading between the lines is it accurate to say that the revised 2 tower Gehry proposal that surfaced a few years ago is neither canceled nor close to moving to sales...... so we should continue to be patient/put it on the back burner for the time being?
 

khaldoon

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No, I have no "evidence" other than the fact that they slept through the biggest Condo boom in Toronto's history.
I'm in real estate and right now a lot of investors are divesting of their condo investments. Rents are dropping and many, many buidings have a high vacancy rate - only to be made worse by
a plethora of new buildings delivering soon.
.
I Believe this is temporary, however, many professionals are now working from home and many students (Ryerson and Uof T) are learning online - much of this will change once covid is under control - but not all of it.
Many will continue to work from home and these tiny, tiny units are too claustrophobic for that. I'm doing a lot of deals (people moving out of downtown Toronto) where
people are moving to peripheral town like Kitchener/Waterloo and Guelph where one can live in a good sized apartment or townhouse and if necessary, GO train into the city once in a while.
Long term, the demand will return downtown, but likely not like it was. As such it seems likely GG (currently carrying the purchase of the property) may try to cut back on the drama
and cost of this project in any way it can. This would also help to explain the delay as many people still remember the original project, but this will fade over time.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my perspective on this long overdue project.

I think what you say could apply to the average condo development but I don’t think it applies to the high end market. Folks who are willing to spend $4m or more on a condo downtown probably own another residence, don’t do it to avoid commuting to work or would relocate to Guelph.
 

Bjays92

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I'm obviously not an insider but I dont understand why people assume if nothing is happening the site is dead or the developers plan on significantly altering the current plan.

There was more at play with Cresford of course, but ultimately they stretched themselves too thin with too many projects. Why is GG not allowed to scoop up this project because it's a fantastic location and would be great on their portfolio, and then hold off on the redevelopment until some of their current and farther along projects come to a close.

Tldr: I just dont understand all the panic
 

UtakataNoAnnex

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I'm obviously not an insider but I dont understand why people assume if nothing is happening the site is dead or the developers plan on significantly altering the current plan.

There was more at play with Cresford of course, but ultimately they stretched themselves too thin with too many projects. Why is GG not allowed to scoop up this project because it's a fantastic location and would be great on their portfolio, and then hold off on the redevelopment until some of their current and farther along projects come to a close.

Tldr: I just dont understand all the panic
It's kinda like watching that election to the South of us really. Tuesday late night, I was in state of pure panic. Today after a period of forever counting, it's looks like it all got worked out for the better. Hopefully this project is following a similar path. /shrug :)
 
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WislaHD

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Just out of curiosity what does “stabilized” state mean? Is it when construction starts? When it ends?
Stabilize usually means when a commercial or rental building has finished their initial leasing up period and has reached "stable" occupancy levels following project completion.

There's a combo of residential and commercial projects on that table. I think for the condos on that list the date of occupancy or registration is being used as a proxy for "stabilization date", or at least that is how I read it.
 

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