Toronto Five St Joseph | 160.93m | 48s | Five St. Joseph | Hariri Pontarini

You can't have interesting retail and new condos, in Toronto at least.

There are plenty of examples of interesting and fun retail in new condos. Though banks, nail salons, dry cleaners, Subways and Starbucks are the most common, there are some really great ones too. Not going to sit here and type out a list but there are many.
 
I imagine that with time and the completion of more and more projects the retail will become more varied, especially when the big hitters like banks and star bucks have snagged up their ideal locations. That's when we will see more interesting stuff appear again.
 
FOUR of them?

Sigh.

This reveals a real shortcoming of the developers. Graywood/MOD should have insisted that RBC take one unit to use as a access to go up to the second level where the bank could have had as much as they wanted. Ground level should be store/store/store/store to animate the sidewalk.

Yonge Street can survive one of these, but down at Aura, which no-one would hold up as an example of how to do anything, two banks side-by-side have sterilized what feels like half the block.

With Canderel, my expectations end with them knowing how to erect a window wall-encased building that stands up. That's it, but with MOD, where we know there is progressive leadership, I expect attention to the details of city building, and not the easiest, most cynical way out. Pity they went that way here. I won't ignore the good things they seem to be doing here otherwise, but yet this bank has really blunted my enthusiasm for the project.
 
There are plenty of examples of interesting and fun retail in new condos. Though banks, nail salons, dry cleaners, Subways and Starbucks are the most common, there are some really great ones too. Not going to sit here and type out a list but there are many.

Sure, I've seen them too. Doesn't make what I've said any less true. As a general rule, new retail = banks and chains. This applies to cleaned up and renovated retail spots like these on Yonge as well. Long-term the rental costs of these units will decline but, in this moment, Toronto is allowing a lot of interesting and unique shops to be replaced by large chains in the downtown. If the city isn't careful, those unique shops will remain largely outside the core and the core itself will become dominated by the chains they'll remain the only businesses capable of paying the heightened rents that downtown shops get. Maybe some are alright with that but a lot of people on this site (and in general) aren't happy with the idea of chains and banks dominating downtown retail.

It's not just a Toronto problem from what I've gathered. I feel like I've been seeing similar complaints coming up in places that are dealing with strong gentrification pressures, especially in North America. But again, these are the costs of redevelopment and revitalization.
 
The fact is, you can't dictate what can go under those condos on Yonge st. It is driven by market force - is the government going to say only non-chain restaurants and shops can rent those space, but not Starbucks or banks? Subway and McDonalds, just like others, are just regular retail, which shouldn't be discriminated against.

However, nothing prevents smaller individual retail to spread over to smaller side streets close to Yonge st. St Joseph, Dundonald, Gloucester, Charles, Isabella, Maitland etc. Why do small retail has to be right on Yonge st? If zoning is the problem, then it should be changed, instead of artificially saying no, banks can only have this much floor space on Yonge st or two starbucks have to be at least XX meters away from each other (which goes against market economy).

Many of us complain the linear nature of retail downtown, instead of having a nodal retail layout. Now it is a great reason to spread retail to more streets other than the main drag (Yonge, Queen, Bloor). Yonge will get expensive and a mom/pop cupcake store won't be able to afford rent it, no matter you like it or not. It is the same everywhere. We should focus the energy to allowing those stores to proper elsewhere, not arbitrarily prescribing what retail can exist on Yonge.
 
Agreed. So much fuss over building height when there should be more fuss on street level presence.

I not sure about that. How to achieve that? How is the planning committee going to say, if you have a chain restaurant, I won't approve it; otherwise, it is OK? How is a McDonald's fundamentally different from a single burger restaurant? We are going to punish a business for being a chain with deep pockets now?

And in all seriousness, Apple store is a chain, not so unlike Starbucks or Subway or a RBC, yet we all look forward to it. We can't decide what can or can't have stores on Yonge based on our preference.
 
We can't decide what can or can't have stores on Yonge based on our preference.

And yet a city with little more than banks and big chain coffee shops on every downtown corner is a dreary city indeed. The anonymity and predictability of it is depressing.
 
And yet a city with little more than banks and big chain coffee shops on every downtown corner is a dreary city indeed. The anonymity and predictability of it is depressing.

I am not denying that, however, as I said, not every street is as expensive as Yonge st. Small retails have plenty of room to grow, just not on Yonge. Bloor between Avenue Road and Yonge doesn't have any individual small retail, does it? That's called market economy. We should stop having this romanticized vision about future Yonge st. Fifth Avenue, Oxford st or Champs Elysee aren't full of mom and pop store either.

There are dozens of streets in downtown where I would LOVE to have more retail. Yonge st may get more boring and sterile in 10 years, but if that comes more vibrancy on less prominent streets, I would say it is a win for downtown Toronto.
 
The fact is, you can't dictate what can go under those condos on Yonge st. It is driven by market force - is the government going to say only non-chain restaurants and shops can rent those space, but not Starbucks or banks? Subway and McDonalds, just like others, are just regular retail, which shouldn't be discriminated against.

Well, no. That's not true at all. The whole premise of the land use planning regime in Ontario is that it is not left completely to market forces and that there are restrictions on said forces. A fundamental aspect of zoning is the control over uses. The whole point of zoning is to discriminate among choices, whether it is permitted uses or performance standards.

I not sure about that. How to achieve that? How is the planning committee going to say, if you have a chain restaurant, I won't approve it; otherwise, it is OK? How is a McDonald's fundamentally different from a single burger restaurant? We are going to punish a business for being a chain with deep pockets now?

And in all seriousness, Apple store is a chain, not so unlike Starbucks or Subway or a RBC, yet we all look forward to it. We can't decide what can or can't have stores on Yonge based on our preference.

You achieve it through zoning. Zoning controls permitted uses. Municipalities do it all the time. They also do it indirectly, by controlling the performance standards applicable to commercial units (most notably minimum and/or maximum sizes, but also by controlling everything from location to parking ratios), so as to encourage/preclude specific types of uses.

I didn't say that we wouldn't approve chain restaurants. Where did you get that? There is an important distinction in planning law -- we can regulate uses, but not users. We can decide whether we want restaurants or not, and zone accordingly, but we generally can't say dictate in the zoning that it be (or not be) a chain, a franchise, etc. We can't say independent coffee shop good, Starbucks bad, Tim Hortons okay.

Toronto has not given a lot of thought to the make-up of retail at the base of residential buildings in the downtown (it has given more consideration to the types of retail and service commercial uses that should, or shouldn't, be permitted in other types of developments). There are exceptions, particularly the imposition of restrictions on night clubs, lounges, certain types of restaurants, and they do often control the uses through size controls. But there are examples downtown where they have been even more specific. From a first principles perspective, there is nothing stopping the city from, say, not allowing a bank as a permitted use in the site-specific zoning for a condo building. Like any planning issue, it is important to achieve an appropriate balance, and one certainly doesn't want to restrict the commercial uses to such a degree that leasing the space becomes difficult.

There is an interesting development application happening in downtown Ottawa, where the local Councillor is turning the focus away from predictable fights over height and focusing instead more on the types of uses that the local community would want to see at the base of the building. The Councillor wants more retail space, and wants the by-law to permit desirable retail uses (which he describes as grocery stores, hardware stores, etc.) and to control/restrict less desirable uses (he mentioned that the neighbourhood does not need more restaurant space). I have no idea if the controls proposed by the Councillor make any sense whatsoever (I don't know the specific details), and I would certainly agree that the by-law should not be too prescriptive. And, of course, the zoning cannot control whether the tenant ends up being Ida's Fresh Groceries/Heintzman & Sons Hardware, or Sobeys Urban Fresh/Canadian Tire Express.

I'm not advocating that the City start dictating retail tenants. Even if they could, they shouldn't. But there are macro-level type controls where they can positively influence the retail make-up in an area. I think we will see more of this.
 
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How would a Councillor or anybody else know what type of retail a neighbourhood needs? The free market should be the only determinant of that.

If 10 restaurants and 1 dry cleaner can thrive, so be it. If 1 restaurant and 10 dry cleaners can thrive, so be it.
 
The issue is that you cannot specify what type of retail is going into these units. Retail banking is classified the same as a clothing shop or convenience store.

The onus is on the developer to select who will be filling the spaces (or the company they have hired to do the selection). The problem is that retailers aren't rushing to fill these spaces. People assume that there is a long list of retailers waiting to move in, but this is not the case. Sometimes, you have to take what you can get. Banks are one of the most stable tenants a landlord can get. Not great for street life, but when its one of a few options to choose from, you go for it.
 

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