Toronto Eglinton Line 5 Crosstown West Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

Are you also including the time value of money? The time people, who are not even living in this area but crossing through it on the LRT, will save?

When we talk about benefits, it's not just about direct monetary benefit of revenues or increased property taxes. It's also about economic and social benefits. Otherwise we should stop running almost every single transit system in the world because they run in losses and are a net financial drain on the governments.

I would love to see that report from Metrolinx where they say that building this line is a waste of money.
 
Deadpool X said:
Are you also including the time value of money? The time people, who are not even living in this area but crossing through it on the LRT, will save?
Click to expand...

There is a summary table on page 74. Option 4 (not option 1) was selected.


Since every business case Metrolinx does is different, the result cannot be directed compared to other projects without also adjusting the assumptions and calculation methods.
 
It still doesn't consider time saving benefits or lowering of frustration which can reduce heart diseases and so on. Benefits of transit projects are a lot more than we can objectively calculate.

Secondly, the time savings will happen every year while the capital costs are once in a century cost.
 
Deadpool X said:
Money spent on Oakville gas plant was a total waste because it got cancelled and nothing came out of it. This line is getting built and will be used by people. Economic benefits of transit projects are many times higher than the costs. Let's say if an elevated line would have had a benefit-cost ratio of 5:1, then underground line too will have a benefit-cost ratio of 3:1. We will still get more benefits than the money we are spending, even if it is an underground line.

Comparing it with projects with sunk costs is not right.

Could it have been better? Yes.

Is it a total waste of money? No.
Click to expand...

The waste is in burying it, not building the line at all. All of the transit utility could have been obtained with an elevated line, at a savings of billions. The BCR on burying the line would be appalling. Of course, an elevated option was not even studied.
 
If they are burying this line, are they planning on running parallel bus service along the corridor. The stop spacing seems rather high for an urban rapid transit line.
 
Was inquiring about Eglinton West....

The current Crosstown seems to have reasonable stop spacing. This Western tunnel is averaging something like 1.3 km spacing. That's a hike compared to the rest of the line.
 
kEiThZ said:
Was inquiring about Eglinton West....

The current Crosstown seems to have reasonable stop spacing. This Western tunnel is averaging something like 1.3 km spacing. That's a hike compared to the rest of the line.
Click to expand...
I mean it's in quite a suburban area. The stop spacing is comparable to the TYSSE, Yonge subway through North York, and the sheppard subway To me it seems fairly reasonable. Should it have been tunneled? That's a different question.
 
Streety McCarface said:
I mean it's in quite a suburban area. The stop spacing is comparable to the TYSSE, Yonge subway through North York, and the sheppard subway
Click to expand...

And those have buses running on the street as well. That's why I was asking. I was under the assumption that a goal for these LRT services was to eliminate surface buses running in the same corridor.
 
kEiThZ said:
And those have buses running on the street as well. That's why I was asking. I was under the assumption that a goal for these LRT services was to eliminate surface buses running in the same corridor.
Click to expand...
No they will have bus services. Reminder that Eglinton will also have bus services running west of Science Center station, paralleling the LRT.
 
kEiThZ said:
And those have buses running on the street as well. That's why I was asking. I was under the assumption that a goal for these LRT services was to eliminate surface buses running in the same corridor.
Click to expand...

There will be bus service between Mt Dennis and Science Centre when the crosstown opens, so I would imagine that this route would simply be extended to cover the western extension as well.

Refer to this doc for more details:
 
salsa said:
There will be bus service between Mt Dennis and Science Centre when the crosstown opens, so I would imagine that this route would simply be extended to cover the western extension as well.
Click to expand...

Is this going to be the case on Finch West as well? Or is this only for LRTs which are tunneled and have higher stop spacing?

If the latter, than that makes tunneling or elevating Finch West even worse, because the TTC still gets stuck having to run a parallel bus service.
 
kEiThZ said:
Is this going to be the case on Finch West as well? Or is this only for LRTs which are tunneled and have higher stop spacing?

If the latter, than that makes tunneling or elevating Finch West even worse, because the TTC still gets stuck having to run a parallel bus service.
Click to expand...
Finch West won't have bus service. Here's the thing, building transit in a way to remove bus service isn't a good thing. Rapid Transit should at best be built to replace express busses, local busses should serve local needs, meanwhile LRTs and metros should have a more rapid and express type service. This is why on paper I like the way YRT is handling the rapidways, Viva routes for the most part only have stops every km or so, and all of the space in between is served by the equivalent local bus. Trying to play to both like Finch West and the other Transit City plans basically gives you the worst of both worlds, the route becomes too oversaturated with stops to be effective for longer distance travel, but there still isn't enough stops for great local service. This is especially clear on Finch West where their attempt to replace the bus services has resulted in building stations like Driftwood and Stevenson that have absolutely no reason to exist, and will do nothing other than make the route that much slower.
 
salsa said:
There will be bus service between Mt Dennis and Science Centre when the crosstown opens, so I would imagine that this route would simply be extended to cover the western extension as well.

Refer to this doc for more details:
Click to expand...
Maybe, if enough people rides it. Parallel bus service would run every 15 min if demand is there, otherwise it could be a 30min headway or mothing at all. The Line 2 used to have a 49B bus that would run to Jane when the extension to Kipling was built. That disappeared in a few years and nothing ran on Bloor every since. I could imagine nothing runs on Eglinton West after a few years leaving riders in the midblock being screwed. Unlike Sheppard, there isn't much of those commercial or medical destinations that would need a bus on the surface.

Even if they do run a parallel bus, I highly doubt it would be the same route as the planned "34 Eglinton" route. Interlining it makes no sense as no one is going to ride from Renforth to Science Centre on a bus, congestion would make the service very unreliable and demand east of Keele is much higher than on Eg West.

ARG1 said:
Finch West won't have bus service. Here's the thing, building transit in a way to remove bus service isn't a good thing. Rapid Transit should at best be built to replace express busses, local busses should serve local needs, meanwhile LRTs and metros should have a more rapid and express type service. This is why on paper I like the way YRT is handling the rapidways, Viva routes for the most part only have stops every km or so, and all of the space in between is served by the equivalent local bus. Trying to play to both like Finch West and the other Transit City plans basically gives you the worst of both worlds, the route becomes too oversaturated with stops to be effective for longer distance travel, but there still isn't enough stops for great local service. This is especially clear on Finch West where their attempt to replace the bus services has resulted in building stations like Driftwood and Stevenson that have absolutely no reason to exist, and will do nothing other than make the route that much slower.
Click to expand...
Except YRT barely operates anything. Speed wise, VIVA operates just like the Finch West LRT. The best in both worlds option is the most economical operating options. On weak local demand corridors like Highway 7 or Eg West, >75% would prefer the faster option leaving a small amount of riders choosing the more local option. This leaves them with a very infrequent service which would drive them to either drive, forgo the trip or walk further to the faster option. This leaves the local option very unstainable and on the elimination list.

This really depends on how we want to shape transit. Do we just build for the majority and screw the minority or do we try to balance everything by adding a few minutes to everyone's trips? The recent RapidTO bus lane experiment has proven that ripping out stops from the minority had pissed a lot of people and forced the TTC to put some of those back in.
 
Currently, on Eglinton West, there will only the 111 EAST MALL or 112 WEST MALL (via Renforth Drive) buses available, if they do away with the 32 EGLINTON WEST buses on Eglinton Avenue with the opening of the Eglinton West LRT.

1609210617174.png

From link.

They may need some sort of community bus to get passengers from the cul-de-sacs west of the 427, to reach either the Renforth Station or the Martin Grove Station (or whatever name they're going to give it).
 
W. K. Lis said:
Currently, on Eglinton West, there will only the 111 EAST MALL or 112 WEST MALL (via Renforth Drive) buses available, if they do away with the 32 EGLINTON WEST buses on Eglinton Avenue with the opening of the Eglinton West LRT.

View attachment 291399
From link.

They may need some sort of community bus to get passengers from the cul-de-sacs west of the 427, to reach either the Renforth Station or the Martin Grove Station (or whatever name they're going to give it).
Click to expand...
The "revised" 32 Eglinton West to Mt Dennis would average over 500m per stop. Only 5 stops would fully lose bus service (Rangoon, Widdicombe Hill/Lloyd Manor, Wincott/Bemersyde, Russell/Eden Valley and Lemonwood Dr). With the exception of Rangoon, all unserved stops are less than 500m from a station. Rangoon is 700m from the closest 112 West Mall stop. That's not a highly transit driven area either. The best I see is maintaining the service from 6am-7pm on weekdays only.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top