Toronto East Harbour | 214.2m | 65s | Cadillac Fairview | Adamson

I don't see any major financial district towers being renovated into residential condos. It's just not practical given their size.

There needs to be a fundamental shift for this to happen. We need to see a return to the 1960s and 1970s when major corporations showed off with flashy head offices instead of leasing space in whichever building becomes available. Employees are also being crammed in tight quarters in back room operations like technology. Probably won't happen until the day the Canadian market is fully open to international competitors.
 
maestro said:
I don't see any major financial district towers being renovated into residential condos. It's just not practical given their size.
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Perhaps I was not clear. I meant adjacent office sites like 2 Carlton being renovated (or in 2 Carlton's case, demolished and rebuilt) into condos. Not major financial district towers. Those will be renovated but remain office space.

The condo I live in right now is a renovated office space, for instance.
 
WislaHD said:
Perhaps I was not clear. I meant adjacent office sites like 2 Carlton being renovated (or in 2 Carlton's case, demolished and rebuilt) into condos. Not major financial district towers. Those will be renovated but remain office space.

The condo I live in right now is a renovated office space, for instance.
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Other examples include the repurposed former office buildings on the southeast corners of Wellesley and Yonge, and Davisville and Yonge - both were secondary, Class B type office buildings, now converted to residential.
 
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Transit-wise, is this development in any way contingent on a new King/Queen subway line? Or is it solely 'waterfront LRT' and SmartTrack/RER (with a new cross-core subway being a bit of a frill)?

If it's the latter, I really think we need to get our priorities straight. Way too much downtown development has been greenlit with no addition to our subway network. Needs to stop. Surface tram solutions don't work efficiently in such a high-density and tightly knit urban fabric, and commuter rail is commuter rail. There NEEDS to be some kind of grade-separated rapid transit line across the core with stations serving all the new/growing communities. We can bundle such a project with 'relieving' Yonge or whatever (aka DRL), but equally important is the necessity of an efficient/reliable/med-high capacity rapid transit line across the south end of the city. Surely this development can help get it funded with shovels in the ground.
 
44 North said:
Transit-wise, is this development in any way contingent on a new King/Queen subway line? Or is it solely 'waterfront LRT' and SmartTrack/RER (with a new cross-core subway being a bit of a frill)?

If it's the latter, I really think we need to get our priorities straight. Way too much downtown development has been greenlit with no addition to our subway network. Needs to stop. Surface tram solutions don't work efficiently in such a high-density and tightly knit urban fabric, and commuter rail is commuter rail. There NEEDS to be some kind of grade-separated rapid transit line across the core with stations serving all the new/growing communities. We can bundle such a project with 'relieving' Yonge or whatever (aka DRL), but equally important is the necessity of an efficient/reliable/med-high capacity rapid transit line across the south end of the city. Surely this development can help get it funded with shovels in the ground.
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First Gulf seems to have some political pull. Hopefully they will be one of several factors that lead to us finally getting on with the Relief Line.

As we see from City Planning, the RL alignment they are favoring is an Eastern Ave alignment that includes a subway stop at Broadview and Eastern, which would be in the north end of this site. GO-RER and the LRT will be on the south side of this site. So upon completion, this project will serve not just as Toronto's Canary Wharf, but also as a massive interchange station. People will need to walk across (or under, I think someone mentioned them building a PATH system under that plaza) East Harbour to get from the subway stop to LRT/RER stop.
 
WislaHD said:
As we see from City Planning, the RL alignment they are favoring is an Eastern Ave alignment that includes a subway stop at Broadview and Eastern, which would be in the north end of this site. GO-RER and the LRT will be on the south side of this site. So upon completion, this project will serve not just as Toronto's Canary Wharf, but also as a massive interchange station. People will need to walk across (or under, I think someone mentioned them building a PATH system under that plaza) East Harbour to get from the subway stop to LRT/RER stop.
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I get that part, I'm just wondering if there's any sort of requirement of a Queen Subway/RL in order for the development and its phases to move forward. Say, phases 1-3 are reliant on commuter rail and some kind of streetcar link, but phases 4-6 require some kind of subway connection. Or can development simply proceed without any kind of addition to our subway/rapid transit network (as has been happening in Toronto's downtown for the last four decades)?
 
The GO RER staton won't be at the south end of this site, it will be at the north end of it, and would connect into the Relief Line station if that gets built under Eastern.

Broadview is to be extended south through this site, and with it will come a new streetcar line, so you'll be able to ride on rails here from the Bloor Danforth line at Broadview as well, or north from the Port Lands. Depending upon branching of the East Waterfront LRT, you could get that coming to this site that way too.

GO RER is not commuter rail. It's regional express rail. The GO Lakeshore lines are already a little bit RER-ish, but need increased frequency and more stations to be true RER. This would be one of those stations, another one of which, Gerrard Square, was announced in June. More expansion of the GO corridor will be needed, whether it be co-branded and co-served by SmartTrack, or just more GO: frequent trains serving this station will add significant connectivity to this site.

In terms of this development being contingent upon those lines, all signs say that GO RER is coming. The Streetcar/LRT on Broadview is more than probably coming. The Relief Line better damn well come. City Council will ultimately have to decide how much space can be built here, and they could write the zoning bylaw to allow particular amounts of space depending on the transit capacity that gets built here. Any zoning bylaw amendment application is vetted by Transportation Services, and they could recommend to Planning, and then Planning to Council, that caps be put on the development based on Transport capacity. Who knows yet, they may not have any qualms, but it will depend upon their analysis of the capacity currently here, and what the various transit proposals could add to that.

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I doubt the site plan requires the DRL. I think that is probably the last thing to be ready there. But I doubt full build-out would happen without the subway, which would really link the site well with the financial district. I agree completely that there is a need for an east-west subway through south downtown. Let's hope it's done before 2030. But you have to wonder about funding.

The plan is start digging in 2018. The company can't wait and I think that is due to the land cost of the site. It is a huge project for the company, the biggest it's every attempted. Like ten 1 Bloor or Globe building projects. I'd almost say they are betting the company on it, but I am sure it is mostly bank money.

If anything is ready transit-wise, I would guess it would be the GO station. With the phased development plan, I would guess it will all come piece by piece. The DRL would probably be the last to be built, considering how long that takes for construction. I imagine the calculations show it can work with GO and the LRT. I believe they are not expecting the site to be fully built out for 15-20 years.
 
Thanks guys. I guess my takeaway from your posts is that there isn't really any requirement for a new subway line in order for future downtown development sites to proceed. I mean, if a new CBD like East Habour can't be the impetus to bring forth such a line (just as Southcore, Humber Bay, Cityplace, EBF, WDL, Distillery, Port Lands, King E/W, Queen E/W, Regent Pk, Alexandra Pk, Liberty, and all the growth/attractions in between all failed to give a DRL a nudge) then really I can't see anything that will get it built.

GO improvements are definitely welcome and a long time coming to help connect Old Toronto nodes, as are new station locations. But it's hard to fully accept benefits on paper as a future reality. We don't know the fare structure, fare premium, how attractive the service will be for semi-local intra-Toronto travel; nor which stations will actually be built. From Unilever it's approx four train lengths to Gerrard, so I have a hard time believing we'll get two stations in that area. Also Cherry was shortlisted for a station too, which makes sense since it has massive development proposals like 3C, but that's even closer station spacing to East Harbour than Gerrard.

Ultimately I think there will be one GO station between Union and Main-Danforth - that no doubt being East Harbour. This is a bonus, but not exactly the easy-to-grasp subway type service that is actually needed across the south end of the city. Expansions/improvements to the streetcar network will be great additions too, but historically and logically we know that speed/reliability/capacity will fall far short of initial projections. Save for complete or semi-complete grade separation, there's no real way around that.

Hopefully Transportation Services can step back and put the individual pieces together to understand the importance of a new subway line. Interestingly they have three divisions which are directly overtop the RL route (City Hall, Eastern/Booth, Don Mills/Overlea). The last thing we should be doing is putting caps on any development.
 
My only concern is whether this office development is integrated into the rest of the city. How convenient is it for employees to go to Leslieville after work? Or to Corktown for lunch? It looks like it might be isolated from surrounding neighborhoods.
 
Even in the first phase there will reportedly be 1,350,000 sq. ft. or so of retail space.

It will be as convenient to go for lunch or to get-together after work as it is in the Financial District.
 
Actually @44 North, Cherry did not make the cut in June, only East Harbour and Gerrard did to the east of Union. Since East Harbour would cross the Don, and because the preferred Relief Line alignment and station locations that were approved for further study this summer by the City also include a station at King and Sumach (Cherry), there is no chance of Cherry getting a GO station.

Based on Metrolinx's June statements, you can consider that both East Harbour and Gerrard are going through. Only something like a government change would stop them.

Meanwhile, I do not share your pessimism about the Relief Line, nor your evaluation of what I said earlier. Transportation services can tell planning "First Gulf should only get the full 13.5 million square feet IF the Relief Line is built" if that's what their model shows is feasible to service. We won't know what they think is feasible for a while yet though. In the meantime, planning on the Relief Line continues: an email update came from the City on that today.

@Waterloo_Guy: Anyone working at East Harbour could wander up to Broadview and Queen, then turn one way or the other to enjoy a meal or a drink: it's all depends on how far they are willing to walk. It's doable in a few minutes, five maybe, so is not very far at all. Presumably they could cross the station bridge and end up in Corktown Common then have a few more minutes walk to Sukhothai or another place. A little faith, but not much.

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I think that the 2 million sf of retail refers to GFA, as apposed to leasable area. The comparison to Yorkdale mall in the front page story might be inappropriate if this is the case. It would mean that there is likely much less retail planned.
 
Certainly way more than enough to serve office workers. They will have plenty of places to shop and eat.

Depending on where one is starting and where one is heading, I'm not sure that Queen Street East is much a different a walk from East Harbour than Queen Street West is from the Financial District. I agree with you that integrating the development into the surrounding city will be important, but I don't see any reason why it won't happen.
 
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44 North said:
Thanks guys. I guess my takeaway from your posts is that there isn't really any requirement for a new subway line in order for future downtown development sites to proceed. I mean, if a new CBD like East Habour can't be the impetus to bring forth such a line (just as Southcore, Humber Bay, Cityplace, EBF, WDL, Distillery, Port Lands, King E/W, Queen E/W, Regent Pk, Alexandra Pk, Liberty, and all the growth/attractions in between all failed to give a DRL a nudge) then really I can't see anything that will get it built. ...
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You could argue that with all of the development charges and increased assessment through that stretch that some should be going to fund transit development the way they hoped Sheppard would. You could draw a line west from East Harbour all the way to Humber Bay and there has to be enough density to support a subway. (Call it the "Windmill Line") Maybe instead of turning north along Roncey, you could just keep going west into Etobicoke.
 
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