Toronto declared ‘sanctuary city’ to non-status migrants

[pman]

So if it was OK for the Normans, the Romans, the Persians etc etc etc to take land by force, what is the problem with allowing some people to just show up here, work a job, get settled and build a life?

I'm not saying it was OK or not OK, simply that:

1. pretty much every county on the planet is occupied by people who displaced other people,
2. that doesn't mean the current inhabitants of those countries have any less right to live in their countries than the original inhabitants, and
3. that doesn't mean that the laws of those countries are invalid.

So you and I have as much right to be here as aboriginals do, and our governments have the right to make and enforce laws for the benefit of Canadians.

In this case either you want all 7 or so billion of the world's inhabitants to have the right to live in Canada if they so choose, or you want some restrictions on migration to Canada that are actually enforced. The problem with the former position, which I gather you support, is that we'll end up with a lot of dependent and undesirable immigrants and we will have lost all control over our population and borders.

We have every right to want an immigration system that benefits Canadians, which means selecting immigrants who will make a positive contribution to our society and respect our laws.

 

[nfitz]

Why is the city getting involved in a federal issue?

Why do you think it is? Simply providing services to residents without questioning their federal status is the opposite surely.

The city has no place condoning illegal activity.

I'm not sure what your reading, but I'm not seeing that it is.

And what is this "sanctuary city" stuff? I don't see the word sanctuary in what City Hall passed - http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2013.CD18.5

This looks to be simply confirming that the city will provide services to it's residents ... nothing more.

What kind of hate-filled person would want anything else but?

 

[TOperson]

I'm not saying it was OK or not OK, simply that:

1. pretty much every county on the planet is occupied by people who displaced other people,
2. that doesn't mean the current inhabitants of those countries have any less right to live in their countries than the original inhabitants, and
3. that doesn't mean that the laws of those countries are invalid.

So you and I have as much right to be here as aboriginals do, and our governments have the right to make and enforce laws for the benefit of Canadians.

In this case either you want all 7 or so billion of the world's inhabitants to have the right to live in Canada if they so choose, or you want some restrictions on migration to Canada that are actually enforced. The problem with the former position, which I gather you support, is that we'll end up with a lot of dependent and undesirable immigrants and we will have lost all control over our population and borders.

We have every right to want an immigration system that benefits Canadians, which means selecting immigrants who will make a positive contribution to our society and respect our laws.

See, what you are doing is making an assertion. That is not the same thing as an argument. And since we are talking about a "right" to be in Canada, it's an ethical & moral one. It's not enough to simply explain why the current state of affairs exists, you have to justify it.

Why is it "right" that you and I (both probably the descendants of immigrants, and in my case very uninvited colonial occupiers) are allowed to remain, but not some newcomers who don't have official permission from the people who were here before?

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "indigenous people didn't say it was OK for Europeans to come here, but whatevs, that's what humans do" and then say "hey! we (current Canadians) never gave these new people (illegal immigrants) permission to come here! this is a problem!"

These illegal immigrants are in most cases doing the exact same thing as my ancestors did. Only difference is the paperwork.

 

[Peepers]

Why do you think it is? Simply providing services to residents without questioning their federal status is the opposite surely.

I'm not sure what your reading, but I'm not seeing that it is.

And what is this "sanctuary city" stuff? I don't see the word sanctuary in what City Hall passed - http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2013.CD18.5

This looks to be simply confirming that the city will provide services to it's residents ... nothing more.

What kind of hate-filled person would want anything else but?

This is what was actually voted on:

1 - Motion to Amend Item (Additional) moved by Councillor Joe Mihevc (Carried)
That City Council re-affirm its commitment to ensuring access to services without fear to immigrants without full status or without full status documents.

"Immigrants without full status" is a euphemism for illegal immigrant.

Furthermore, council has agreed to ask the Province to "revisit" the residency requirements for access to provincially funded services such as healthcare, public housing, welfare ("Ontario Works") etc. so that immigrants "without full status" can get access to OHIP, Welfare, Subsidized housing, etc.!

You don't have to be "hate filled" to be vehemently opposed to these actions in fact any sane person would find these proposals to be completely wrong-headed. Why - for example - should we be providing access to subsidized housing to illegal immigrants? It's bad enough that a huge number of TCHC housing units are occupied by "documented" refugees who somehow manage to get placed into apartments soon after arrival in Canada while needy elderly and disabled Canadians wait for years to get into subsidized housing! The situation is disgraceful enough as it is!

Something to keep in mind is many of these estimated 200,000 "undocumented workers" are actually failed refugee claimants, i.e. they came to Canada with the intention of filing a bogus refugee claims and were eventually turned down.

 

[nfitz]

"Immigrants without full status" is a euphemism for illegal immigrant.

euphemism? Surely illegal immigrant is a euphemism for an immigrant without full status. I don't recall "illegal immigrant" being defined in our laws.

You don't have to be "hate filled" to be vehemently opposed to these actions in fact any sane person would find these proposals to be completely wrong-headed. Why - for example - should we be providing access to subsidized housing to illegal immigrants? It's bad enough that a huge number of TCHC housing units are occupied by "documented" refugees who somehow manage to get placed into apartments soon after arrival in Canada while needy elderly and disabled Canadians wait for years to get into subsidized housing! The situation is disgraceful enough as it is!

And at the same time, should the library be checking the immigration status of someone who wants to take out a book?

I find the undercurrent of racism in those who whine about immigrants really disgusting.

 

[spider]

These illegal immigrants are in most cases doing the exact same thing as my ancestors did. Only difference is the paperwork.

No, assuming your ancestors arrived many years ago the difference is not paperwork it is firepower and your ancestors did not arrive and immediately demand welfare of the Indian incumbents.

 

[RC8]

No, assuming your ancestors arrived many years ago the difference is not paperwork it is firepower and your ancestors did not arrive and immediately demand welfare of the Indian incumbents.

It is true that after [the indians] have been reassured and have lost this fear, they are so artless and so free with all they possess, that no one would believe it without having seen it. Of anything they have, if you ask them for it, they never say no; rather they invite the person to share it, and show as much love as if they were giving their hearts.

It appears to me, that the people are ingenious, and would be good servants and I am of opinion that they would very readily become Christians, as they appear to have no religion. They very quickly learn such words as are spoken to them. If it please our Lord, I intend at my return to carry home six of them to your Highnesses, that they may learn our language.

- Christopher Columbus

At present whether you can or you can't emigrate to the developed world is based mostly on how much money you make. Brilliant people with great education but who do not have sizable amounts of money struggle to come and share their talents. At the same time, absolutely awful evil human-rights-abusing racist and scarily religious monsters who have gotten rich by means we would never accept in this country, have no problem getting in.

I'm sympathetic to issues of sovereignty, and countries should have some right to regulate who comes in and who doesn't, but it's hard to stand by the current practices of most places in the developed world.

 

[adma]

I find the undercurrent of racism in those who whine about immigrants really disgusting.

You'd be surprised at how many said "racists" are themselves of immigrant and even vizmin origin--and even of the same origin as those they're decrying. (That's why a lot of them voted for Ford and Harper, remember.)

 

[TOperson]

No, assuming your ancestors arrived many years ago the difference is not paperwork it is firepower and your ancestors did not arrive and immediately demand welfare of the Indian incumbents.

"Indian"? Really?

I really wouldn't like it if our present-day illegal immigrants used firepower to get in. Fortunately they usually just want to work.

My ancestors were Scottish and English. Did they fire on the indigenous people of Southwestern Ontario, as a rule?

 

[TOareaFan]

Why do you think it is? Simply providing services to residents without questioning their federal status is the opposite surely.

I'm not sure what your reading, but I'm not seeing that it is.

And what is this "sanctuary city" stuff? I don't see the word sanctuary in what City Hall passed - http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2013.CD18.5

This looks to be simply confirming that the city will provide services to it's residents ... nothing more.

What kind of hate-filled person would want anything else but?

euphemism? Surely illegal immigrant is a euphemism for an immigrant without full status. I don't recall "illegal immigrant" being defined in our laws.

And at the same time, should the library be checking the immigration status of someone who wants to take out a book?

I find the undercurrent of racism in those who whine about immigrants really disgusting.

100% in agreement here......you, I believe, have fully understood what the city is doing here.

 

[Hipster Duck]

“Unless there are aboriginal people in this building, every single one of us and our ancestors arrived to this country at some point in time as undocumented workers,â€
[/B]

Well, I agree with you on this one, peepers. This sort of shrill rhetoric does nothing for anybody, especially aboriginals. What would aboriginals expect us to do after 500 years of European and non-aboriginal settlement in the Americas? Go "home"? Are they going to stop speaking English and enjoying the material comforts of modern society? Ignoring the fact that almost all aboriginals have mixed ancestry somewhere (so they would have to deport themselves, too, I suppose), they are no longer tribal nomads but live and play by the rules of a modern economy. "They" [broadly speaking, aboriginals] depend on "us" [broadly speaking, non-aboriginals] and they are too far integrated into our hybridized culture and economy to pull out, and they never can. So Kristyn Wong-Tam is just wasting everyone's time and movements like Idle no More will never do anything except raise consciousness about a problem that has no solution because it is too deep and completely irreversible and nobody can be blamed and debts cannot be paid.

But just as there's an undivorcable interdependency between aboriginals and the rest of us, there's a similar dependency we have on illegal immigration and the labour it provides. I want to see hard evidence that illegal immigrants cost us more in the services they extract from "us" than provide "us" benefits. I think you will see that if every illegal immigrant packed up and left the countries of the industrialized world, that world economies would grind to a halt. They basically allow us to live a high quality, material lifestyle at a fraction of what it would cost otherwise. It's not like they are really taking away jobs, since few native Canadians [here I mean Canadian citizens, born and raised] would do the work that illegals often do. The NY Times ran a terrific story about desperate white Americans who were hired by Federal programs (so, subsidized) to pick fruit and were less productive, more expensive and had a lousier work ethic than their illegal Mexican counterparts. Even with the subsidies, farmers found it hard to hire them. If you are able to eat a meal in Chinatown for under $6, it's probably because some illegal immigrant is working below minimum wage in the kitchen. The phrase "there's no such thing as a free lunch" is almost literally true when we think about the role illegal immigrants and labour practices have on our food system. This also extends to cut rate prices on services from contractors to maids to nannies.

 

[TOperson]

What would aboriginals expect us to do after 500 years of European and non-aboriginal settlement in the Americas?

They might expect us not to be hypocrites.

If our ancestors' illegal migration to Canada was OK, then why not the illegal immigration of today? Those migrants are somebody's ancestors too.

if every illegal immigrant packed up and left the countries of the industrialized world, that world economies would grind to a halt. They basically allow us to live a high quality, material lifestyle at a fraction of what it would cost otherwise.

Then we shouldn't nickel and dime them on the use of a few local services.

 

[Hipster Duck]

^I don't think you read my post, because that's pretty much exactly what I said.

 

[jaycola]

I find the undercurrent of racism in those who whine about immigrants really disgusting.

Where in any of the above comments do you see anything remotely racist? Try discussing the facts rather that throwing around ignorant statements.

There is nothing racist in withholding services from failed refugee claimants and illegal aliens who come either on tourists or student visas and choose to stay without acquiring the right to do so. 68% of refugee claims made are deemed bogus or denied because those claimants have a criminal past or pending criminal charges. Those individuals who stay after being ordered to leave are in fact committing a federal crime. If the federal government chooses to deny residency why should a city government not support this decision?

From the RCMP website:

Project CONJUGAL

In October 2009, the RCMP initiated an investigation dubbed Project CONJUGAL, the purpose of which was to address the legitimacy of hundreds of suspicious marriages.

The investigation revealed that Mr. Niang, a bogus immigration consultant who is believed to be the mastermind behind this scheme, provided advice on how to submit misrepresented facts to Citizenship and Immigration Canada to individuals whose visas were due to expire. Specifically, he organized fake marriages with the assistance of accomplices to allow these individuals originating from North Africa to remain in Canada.

The network recruited young Canadian women in the Montréal area and arranged for them to participate in marriages of convenience in exchange for money.

Mr. Niang appeared in Court in March 2012 to face 42 counts of indictment, including for offences under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. He will appear again today at the Montréal Court House.
Immigration Fraud

The RCMP investigates suspicious activity by criminal organizations offering fraudulent advice to circumvent Canadian immigration laws or illegal services to help obtain Canadian citizenship more quickly or facilitate entry into Canada.

The RCMP Immigration and Passport Section is responsible for detecting and interdicting criminal activity in relation to human smuggling, international human trafficking, immigration/citizenship fraud, and forgery and use of false travel documents. The RCMP is working closely with its partners, including Citizenship and Immigration Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency.
Appeal to the Public

The RCMP encourages citizens to report any information on suspected illicit immigration activity by local individuals or groups to its investigators at 514-939-8306.

It is obvious to me that the cities' failure to comply with RCMP investigations ought to be deemed complicity with illegal activity.

Maybe this guy is going to approach the city for municipal services? Should he be provided access without looking into his status?

Name: SUSKI, Jacek Jozef
Date of Birth: 1969-03-01
Place of Birth: Poland

Last Known Address:
Toronto, Ontario

Identifying Features:
None

This individual is the subject of an active Canada-wide warrant for removal because he is inadmissible to Canada. This individual has been convicted of an offence outside of Canada that, if committed in Canada, would constitute a Canadian offence.

Many more individuals with outstanding warrants can been seen here. www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca

In 2008 Canada Border Services claimed it had lost track of 41,000 individuals who had been ordered removed. No doubt that number has climbed since then. When many of these individuals may have been denied because of war crimes and other criminal activity, why should we not take due diligence to ensure they are lawfully in Canada?

Canada needs immigration but it must be on our terms accepting those who would be of benefit to our nation and society otherwise we will become a heaven for the worst the world has to offer rather than an attraction for the best.

 

[jaycola]

And what is this "sanctuary city" stuff? I don't see the word sanctuary in what City Hall passed

Maybe it's not in the policy because it is not a legal term. It doesn't mean that it is not the full intent of this policy.

From Yahoo News Canada

"I think this is a historic moment,” Councillor Joe Mihevc told reporters according to Now Toronto.

"We’re saying we are a ‘Sanctuary City,’ and that anyone who is in the City of Toronto will be able to access all the services that the City of Toronto offers.

Anybody means those who are here fraudulently, under police warrant or deportation order I guess.

I heard some 905'ers have been accessing city services because they find them convenient or are better value than those offered by their own municipality. I expect many of you would rather see them charged with criminal activity than exposing illegal immigrants to any scrutiny.