Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[sixrings]

There is a article today out of the globe talking about how the sheppard line will need a extra 10 million in funding to study if private partnership will be viable. OK Heres just my CRAZY thought. What if the Eglinton Line went underground from Weston to Laird. Then at laird it would run at surface on the south side of the street until after the DVP (this allows it to go under the VIA bridge and the DVP bridge) then it would go elevated to Kennedy. From Kennedy it would go elevated to STC. WHY NOT AT STC turn north on Mccowan up to sheppard and then West to Don Mills elevated. ALSO A THOUGHT. If the line was Monorail or whatever then when it gets to Don Mills would it not be able to get to yonge with a conversion that DOES NOT INCLUDE LOWERING THE PLATFORMS.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

tabeesh:

Thanks for the update. I sent them a message re: the PDF too, guess enough individuals made that issue known for something to be done about it!

AoD

 

[Eug]

There is a article today out of the globe talking about how the sheppard line will need a extra 10 million in funding to study if private partnership will be viable. OK Heres just my CRAZY thought. What if the Eglinton Line went underground from Weston to Laird. Then at laird it would run at surface on the south side of the street until after the DVP (this allows it to go under the VIA bridge and the DVP bridge) then it would go elevated to Kennedy. From Kennedy it would go elevated to STC. WHY NOT AT STC turn north on Mccowan up to sheppard and then West to Don Mills elevated. ALSO A THOUGHT. If the line was Monorail or whatever then when it gets to Don Mills would it not be able to get to yonge with a conversion that DOES NOT INCLUDE LOWERING THE PLATFORMS.

So, what would be the price differential for elevation vs. underground?

If it's only a couple of 10s of millions of dollars per km saved, would it actually be worth it, considering the potential disadvantages?

BTW, with that layout, Laird to DVP would be a huge traffic bottleneck, which would defeat the point of elevating the line after the DVP.

 

[Darwinkgo]

Elevated unless it requires way more property purchases to avoid taking road capacity, would be a huge cost reduction, on the order of 50%.

 

[gweed123]

Elevated unless it requires way more property purchases to avoid taking road capacity, would be a huge cost reduction, on the order of 50%.

Put it in the median. If there was enough room for LRT in the median, there's enough room for an elevated structure. The stations would be a bit more complex, but it's not like a station has never been built over a road before.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Put it in the median. If there was enough room for LRT in the median, there's enough room for an elevated structure. The stations would be a bit more complex, but it's not like a station has never been built over a road before.

Ah, but it has never been built over a road before in Toronto. There's the rub. Torontoitis* strikes again!

Torontoitis. A condition in which transport technologies that have been proven to be successful in comparable cities will not be explored in Toronto because Toronto has never had a history with that form of technology. May induce a fierce defense of how unique the local, Toronto context is such that it will preclude the application of that technology (e.g. "Toronto can't operate artics! Unlike Ottawa and Quebec city, Toronto has snow! Unlike Seattle, San Francisco and Vancouver, Toronto has hills! Artics are unreliable on hills and in snow, and are therefore unreliable for Toronto.").

 

[gweed123]

Ah, but it has never been built over a road before in Toronto. There's the rub. Torontoitis* strikes again!

Torontoitis. A condition in which transport technologies that have been proven to be successful in comparable cities will not be explored in Toronto because Toronto has never had a history with that form of technology. May induce a fierce defense of how unique the local, Toronto context is such that it will preclude the application of that technology (e.g. "Toronto can't operate artics! Unlike Ottawa and Quebec city, Toronto has snow! Unlike Seattle, San Francisco and Vancouver, Toronto has hills! Artics are unreliable on hills and in snow, and are therefore unreliable for Toronto.").

Very good definition, haha.

For a city that prides itself on being so multicultural, and so open to new cultures, it certainly isn't very open to new ideas. Even if those ideas have been shown to work in other places.

 

[officedweller]

Put it in the median. If there was enough room for LRT in the median, there's enough room for an elevated structure. The stations would be a bit more complex, but it's not like a station has never been built over a road before.

Side of road stations are much cheaper to build, allow for a lower (cheaper) guideway and eliminate "bents" (post and beam supports) over the roadway. They are also less obtrusive and can be more easily integrated into TOD projects.

 

[Eug]

Elevated unless it requires way more property purchases to avoid taking road capacity, would be a huge cost reduction, on the order of 50%.

Well, that's my question. Would it really be 50% savings?

I'm just looking at the original Transit City plan, which was a total of 33 km for $4.6 billion, in the median. That works out to about $140 million per km, including the underground stretch.

The new Metrolinx plan prices it at $8.2 billion for 25.2 km, which works out to $325 million per km, including the underground stretch and the upgraded SRT.

I don't know the cost of these things, but somehow it seems rather optimistic to say that the cost would be halved with a partially elevated system.

 

[SlickFranky]

Well, that's my question. Would it really be 50% savings?

I'm just looking at the original Transit City plan, which was a total of 33 km for $4.6 billion, in the median. That works out to about $140 million per km, including the underground stretch.

The new Metrolinx plan prices it at $8.2 billion for 25.2 km, which works out to $325 million per km, including the underground stretch and the upgraded SRT.

I don't know the cost of these things, but somehow it seems rather optimistic to say that the cost would be halved with a partially elevated system.

The cost of a km of elevated is roughly half of the cost of a km of bored tunnel. Even assuming it's only 1/3 less, a city government stressing over the cost of splash pads should certainly appreciate the value of $100M+ per km of wasted cash. There are 8ish km's between Laird and Kennedy, so an extremely conservative savings of $800M.

Maybe you think that's only 10% off the total, but....damn $800M is a lot of money. Especially in a city that has a huge backlog of transit projects needing capital.

 

[Ryan]

Here's what I would like to see:

As a compromise, stop the Eglinton LRT at Don Mills, and use the money to extend the BD up to STC via McCowan. Both segments are about the same distance and would likely cost the same.

This way, Scarborough gets it's subway that Ford promised, and the RT can likely be kept in service long enough to until it's built.

Eglinton gets built as the original tunneled portion, and it can be determined later whether to put it above or below ground.

Finishing the Eglinton line (along with Sheppard and Finch West) can be part of the next cycle of funding. Although ideally, I think shifting focus first to some sort of Queen/DRL should be the next priority.

I'm going to write to every councillor and MP to try to get this to happen.

 

[DavidH]

I'm going to write to every councillor and MP to try to get this to happen.

No offense, Ryan, but this would just help perpetuate the cycle of constantly-changing transit plans in Toronto, thus ensuring that nothing ever gets built.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Putting the Eglinton Crosstown LRT underground east of Laird to Kennedy is gravy money being wasted because of Rob Ford's phobia against visible rail transit.

 

[DavidH]

Putting the Eglinton Crosstown LRT underground east of Laird to Kennedy is gravy money being wasted because of Rob Ford's phobia against visible rail transit.

I agree completely but at this point, I'd rather just build it that way than keep waiting for a perfect plan to appear.

 

[CapitalSeven]

The original at grade plan has an approved EA and would be quicker to build. Build the plan we had 18 months ago, not the one they're still trying to figure out.