Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[MisterF]

It is fascinating a bit to compare the Crosstown to the Relief Line.

The Relief Line (lets say the Long route to Sheppard) has peak hour ridership that is comparable to the Bloor-Danforth line, but it's daily ridership is substantially less than Bloor-Danforth, lower than even that of the Crosstown..

The Crosstown meanwhile has lower peak hour ridership than either line, but it's daily ridership is very big, especially compared to that of the Relief Line.

This would indicate that the Crosstown will be actively used throughout the day while the Relief Line will have a largely peak-hour ridership demand. (Although, trip patterns might change should the Relief Line open, disproving this peak-hour notion entirely for all we know.)

Is there anywhere that shows daily ridership for the long version of the RL going to Sheppard? I've only ever seen peak hour ridership, which is a virtual three way tie between the RL and Lines 1 and 2. My gut feeling is that the RL will have higher ridership than the projections show, but it'll be a long, long time before I'm proven right or wrong on that.

I'm not really in a position to argue as I'm somewhat ill-informed however the Canada Line in Vancouver has a similar capacity to ECLRT using ATO and less than ten years after it's opening they've had to remove seats just to increase capacity. Predictions have been consistently exceeded and the amount of new development on the route has been incredible. I'm not sure about Eglinton but, if the line draws some significant development capacity could be an issue sooner than we predict.

The difference is that while the Canada Line is a primary line feeding into downtown, Eglinton isn't and people going downtown will be transferring at multiple spots. Eglinton has lots of "relief valves" where people will be getting off: Line 1 (twice), Line 2, the DRL, and three different RER lines. It's a very different beast from the Canada Line.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Is there anywhere that shows daily ridership for the long version of the RL going to Sheppard? I've only ever seen peak hour ridership, which is a virtual three way tie between the RL and Lines 1 and 2. My gut feeling is that the RL will have higher ridership than the projections show, but it'll be a long, long time before I'm proven right or wrong on that.

We've gotten numbers for yearly ridership. I extrapolated from there, as you are correct, we never received daily ridership figures.

I am just forgetting from where we learned that.

 

[Allandale25]

I can't remember if there is a separate thread for this but the Etobicoke Centre MPP just posted about his "advocacy" work on the Eglinton West LRT and the changes he's pushed for.

 

[Hopkins123]

I can't remember if there is a separate thread for this but the Etobicoke Centre MPP just posted about his "advocacy" work on the Eglinton West LRT and the changes he's pushed for.

"2. Grade separations (tunnels/bridges)

Success! Since I found out about the project and its potential impact on our community, I have been advocating for the LRT to be tunneled underneath Eglinton, from Scarlett all the way to Martin Grove.

Originally, no grade separations were being considered. My advocacy has been instrumental in convincing planners to study grade separations at all five major intersections on Eglinton:

• Martin Grove
• Kipling
• Islington
• Royal York
• Scarlett

Given that the city has agreed to take the lead on the Eglinton West LRT project, I will continue to advocate for a plan that will have the smallest impact possible on traffic in Etobicoke."

Yay! The Eglinton West "Subway" is finally on the verge of existence. 25 years late, but better than never. The only thing I fault this MPP for is the continued advocacy of midblock stops. How would that even work in a grade-separated scenario? Give up on that, and add back in a grade-separated East Mall station (which could be elevated given the topography in that area). Then perfection.

Now where's the East End's grade-separation champion? Don Mills to UTSC needs to be grade-separated too.

 

[crs1026]

Fact Check: It was a motion by Councillor John Campbell at Toronto City Council that directed staff to investigate the grade separations further.

I wonder how his advocacy for tunnelling the whole way from Scarlett to Martin Grove, with a greater number of stations, fits with the funding envelope he claims to have obtained.

In fairness, he has come out to the public meetings and has accepted the project and carried forward a lot of feedback. I'm grateful that he is willing to push back against some of the ugly bits that ML and the City have tried to push under the rug (like the traffic issues).

I just wish that the Wynne crowd would restrain the puffery - and demonstrate more appreciation of the actual issues and tradeoffs.

- Paul

 

[SaugeenJunction]

I can't remember if there is a separate thread for this but the Etobicoke Centre MPP just posted about his "advocacy" work on the Eglinton West LRT and the changes he's pushed for.

Really happy to see Baker supporting this project. He is a hard working MPP with a good head on his shoulders.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Success! Since I found out about the project and its potential impact on our community, I have been advocating for the LRT to be tunneled underneath Eglinton, from Scarlett all the way to Martin Grove.

Is this guy trying to turn Crosstown West into Scarborough Subway 2.0? This thing is carrying something like 7,000 pphpd. What a waste of money to tunnel it for relatively few riders. Repeating the mistakes of Spadina, Sheppard and Scarborough.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

Really happy to see Baker supporting this project. He is a hard working MPP with a good head on his shoulders.

I'm not a fan at all of the Ontario Liberals and I really want Kathleen Wynne and many of her top MPP goons, like Deb Matthews and Eric Hoskins, to go down in flames in 2018 but I do like Baker. I think he would be an appealing choice to become the next Ontario Liberal leader.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Is this guy trying to turn Crosstown West into Scarborough Subway 2.0? This thing is carrying something like 7,000 pphpd. What a waste of money to tunnel it for relatively few riders. Repeating the mistakes of Spadina, Sheppard and Scarborough.

You have to let go of the by the book way. The people in this city are cry babies about above ground transit north of St.Clair.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Is this guy trying to turn Crosstown West into Scarborough Subway 2.0? This thing is carrying something like 7,000 pphpd. What a waste of money to tunnel it for relatively few riders. Repeating the mistakes of Spadina, Sheppard and Scarborough.

That is not at all what he is saying. He said he originally he was looking at burying it, but seems to have conceded that the idea of grade separations isa good idea, which it is.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I'm guessing that the Etobicoke Centre MPP, Yvan Baker, is only looking at the LRT within the boundaries of his riding. Jane Street and Pearson Airport are not included.

 

[Palma]

I'm guessing that the Etobicoke Centre MPP, Yvan Baker, is only looking at the LRT within the boundaries of his riding. Jane Street and Pearson Airport are not included.

But grade separations only at intersections? I thought thats what it was always going to be. But it won;t be grade separated all the wast from MOunt Dennis will it?

 

[W. K. Lis]

The EA had it at grade from east of Jane Street until Commerce Blvd/401. After SmartTrack, it was suggested for grade separations at the major intersections and over the Humber River & Eglinton Flats. Adding the grade separations (plural) would mean an EA amendment.

Personally, I think the Martin Grove & Eglinton intersection should be grade separated because that was one of the most congested intersections in Toronto. Click on this link. (Also why Kingston Road & Lawrence should be grade separated in the east side.) Making all the major intersections grade separated would increase the capital cost.

 

[crs1026]

The grade separations will add cost, but this is one of the make-or-break design points that has the potential to kill support for LRT in this city once and for all if not done right.

The traffic study in the EA kind of mumbled when they reported on the traffic modelling regarding left turns. If you read the fine print, the volume of left turns at all the major streets - Kipling, Islington, and to some degree Royal York - is substantial. The traffic light timing required to clear that volume of turning traffic presents obstacles for traffic priority signalling for the LRT. Without this traffic priority, LRT velocity will suffer. There are lots of 'D' ratings in the data - which the EA did not draw much profile to.

The solution proposed - U turn points - actually impairs the LRT more, because it creates three points of conflict (where LRT will encounter timed red lights) for each major intersection. A conventional intersection with separate transit signalling only has one such point of conflict. I'm skeptical what the u turn flow will do to traffic volumes, also, as every u-turning vehicle will have to lane change after crossing the LRT track before turning right. Dedicated left lanes will be needed to hold vehicles intending to U- turn, and dedicated right turn lanes will be needed because of the extra right turn volume - in a corridor that is width challenged. Eglinton is a major arterial street and no one benefits if higher order transit leads to poorer vehicular flows here.

Add local residents' vehement upset about losing left turns at the intermediate lights, such aw Wincott - it's a good thing that staff were sent away to do more detailed traffic study and to rethink the grade separations.

We all like LRT because it's so much cheaper than subways, but if we push the pendulum to ultra cheap design, we end up with a product that doesn't work well. Going too cheap is as big a waste of money as building subways where LRT can work. Adding some further grade separation is prudent here.

- Paul

 

[CapitalSeven]

I've entertained some wacky ideas about this stretch of road. Bear with me...

• Leave the stops at major intersections at grade. No elevators, quick access, cheap and low-maintenance.
• Ban left turns and build the U-turn points / Michigan lefts / whatever.
• Grade-separate LRT under the U-turn points, not the intersections.

No conflicts or delays, easier access, cheaper to build, more energy efficient as vehicles accelerate down from stops and decelerate up towards them.
Probably a fatal flaw I haven't thought of.