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Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

If people want an express train service, they might as well back the most realistic possibility for this: the midtown CP line.

To solve the Finch problem in the hydro corridor they can also add an Uptown CP Line as well.

+1 The irony about this is that, IIRC, both lines can link to each other near the airport. Thus helping turn Pearson into more of an intermodal transit hub and giving two crosstown regional rail lines serving the airport.
 
The Toronto Rocket will never run through these tunnels, for the simple fact that they won't need that kind of capacity for the entire lifetime of the TR trains.
Don't expect Eglinton to ever be converted to a 3rd rail system.

There are so many ways to increase capacity on the line that it doesn't need to be "convertable".
They'll be able to:
1) Lengthen the stations to the currently designed maximum length. (I think the plan is 60m for now with 30m unfinished expansion space?)
2) Increase to 90 second frequency with ATC
3) Purchase Toronto Rocket-style single cabin trains

Once they've maxed all of those out it makes more sense to bite the bullet and lengthen platforms than to rebuild them to allow a high floor vehicle which would require scrapping the entire fleet.

Don't forget a DRL running up to Eglinton in both the East and West. Passengers from the further reaches of the line would presumably transfer to the DRL freeing up capacity on the central portion.
 
Toronto transit plans will only go at it's usual slow pace due to the TTC/City mindset that everything has to be tunneled and everything has to start from scratch.
Toronto has a rail network that most cities would give their left nut for but uses none of them save a 3 km stretch of ROW for the SRT. Toronto is the only city I know of that does not use any of it's current at grade rail corridors. You could build an at grade sub/LRT/mono from Dundas West all the way up to Humber elevating it thru Woodbine and then using the rail corridor all the way down. It would be incredibly fast to build and very cheap. Even the enviornmental reviews wouldn't be needed and where there is limited room they could elevate those sections.
How many more years will it take for the City to actually get a BRT along the Finch corridor? Hell, a BRt along the Georgtown ROW would be better and hell of a lot faster than what they have now which is nothing.
 
Toronto is the only city I know of that does not use any of it's current at grade rail corridors.

If you are referring to the rail corridors where there are currently tracks, then you might want to take into account that those corridors are not Toronto's but rather CN or CP's. Those organizations are not under Toronto's jurisdiction and it is not like Toronto can just say 'hey, we're going to start taking over your rail lines'.

Even the enviornmental reviews wouldn't be needed and where there is limited room they could elevate those sections.

Really? You sure about that? Do you really know what EAs are for and when they have to be done?
 
The ER wouldn't have to be done as they are already done due to the Georgetown GO expansion and the massive waste of money known as the Pearson/Union -for-those-who-work-downtown-and-can-get-a-tax-write-off-or-their-corporations-will-pay-for-their-trip high speed rail.
BTW, what was the logic of using LRT for the Eglinton Crosstown anyway? Why didn't they just use the SkyTrain and heat the current lines and upgrade to route to accamodate MK11 trains? It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper, had very little interuption on the current SRT schedule, and seeing Ford is going to bury it weather for 90% of the line wouldn't have been an issue.
It would have even saved money by not having to create a brand new train storage and operational centre. The storage would have to be expanded but that's a hell of a lot cheaper than building an entire new storage and maintenance facility which will have to be done as remember these are different guage than the current legacy streetcar replacements.
It seems so completely illogical but I guess that is transit planning in Toronto as per usual.
 
The ER wouldn't have to be done as they are already done due to the Georgetown GO expansion and the massive waste of money known as the Pearson/Union -for-those-who-work-downtown-and-can-get-a-tax-write-off-or-their-corporations-will-pay-for-their-trip high speed rail.

So you are saying that because an EA was done for the Pearson rail link that they wouldn't have to do an EA for any other at-grade rail line takeover/conversion to subway? Are you sure about that?

For that matter, have you looked at the use of those various CN and CP lines, how many tracks they have, how much space the ROW has for additional tracks and how adding TTC trains to the schedule would impact operations by CN and CP? What are the opinions of CN and CP on that possibility?

Assuming all of the above is totally fine with CN and CP, have you looked at what physical barriers would be needed to be added if you want to put in an electrified third rail at ground level in the corridor? Surely you don't want pedestrians free to wander along the tracks.

BTW, what was the logic of using LRT for the Eglinton Crosstown anyway? Why didn't they just use the SkyTrain and heat the current lines and upgrade to route to accamodate MK11 trains? It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper, had very little interuption on the current SRT schedule, and seeing Ford is going to bury it weather for 90% of the line wouldn't have been an issue.

You mean the logic well-published years ago? Like as explained starting on slide 7?

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/proj...n_lrt/pdf/2009-11-20_display_panels_part1.pdf

Or are you suggesting that they stop work on the central portion and go back to the drawing board to redesign the line (and possibly re-do the EAs) to accommodate your Sky Train? Would you be chipping in to help with the cancellation costs for the LRT vehicle order or will you revert to the 'Bombardier would gladly waive those fees for a chance to showcase their wonderful Sky Train technology' even though it would mean further delay in revenue actually flowing to Bombardier (since the line construction will be delayed, they won't be needing the new vehicles until later)?

What about costs incurred by the construction companies who are expecting to start digging this summer but will have to hold off since you want to redesign the line? Seems kind of strange for someone repeatedly going on about 'saving money'.

It would have even saved money by not having to create a brand new train storage and operational centre. The storage would have to be expanded but that's a hell of a lot cheaper than building an entire new storage and maintenance facility which will have to be done as remember these are different guage than the current legacy streetcar replacements.
It seems so completely illogical but I guess that is transit planning in Toronto as per usual.

Just curious if you've looked at the current SRT facility and the possibility of expanding it to accommodate all the new trains needed for the line. I'm guessing probably not.

Given we don't know when construction of the line east of Leslie will take place (and it is a very real possibility that by the time they are ready, a new municipal regime will be in place that might decide to revert to the previous plan to save money and put the savings towards a revived Finch West line), wouldn't it be a good idea to have a yard that is actually connected to the first part of the line when it opens? Or should they just dig the central tunnel, build the stations and then leave them unused for a few years until they build the rest of the way to the SRT yard?
 
They wouldn't have to redo and contracts. It's a tunnel with the same design, features, widths etc as any normal tunneled rail system. The only thing that is different is the tracks themselves although they wouldn't have the expense of having to pay for the overhead power source. I wouldn't suggest it except that the SRT is already built with the storage, maintanence, and command centre already there. All they would have too do is add the heating system for the current stretch and improve the sharp turns for MK11 trains.
That is a whopping amount saved than tearing up the line for a system where the trains don't have the incline,pick up speeds, cheaper operating costs, and the trains don't have the same amount of longevity.
They are already paying the cancellation fee so I just don't get it.
 
They wouldn't have to redo and contracts. It's a tunnel with the same design, features, widths etc as any normal tunneled rail system. The only thing that is different is the tracks themselves although they wouldn't have the expense of having to pay for the overhead power source.

You mean the MK11 trains are low floors just like the LRVs (so stations wouldn't need to be changed)? Their power requirements (including substations and the like) are the same?

I wouldn't suggest it except that the SRT is already built with the storage, maintanence, and command centre already there.

And this facility is big enough to handle all the new trains or at least can be easily expanded to such a size? It'll be connected to the central tunneled portion when that stretch of the line is completed prior to the line east of Leslie (that could still end up being at-grade median ROW)?

They are already paying the cancellation fee so I just don't get it.

Can you provide a cite that says they are paying a cancellation fee for the LRVs they have ordered for Eglinton that they will be expecting to receive for Eglinton? I really don't see Ford paying a cancellation fee for an order that hasn't been canceled.
 
I understand that there will be a $49 million cancellation fee as the number of LRT cars ordered is near what the city ordered for TC.
I also don't understand the idea of SkyTrain being propritery. Yes, in reality it is but that doesn't matter as the whole GTA system only has one supplier............Bombardier. Any funds at all that get prov/fed assistance will also require a contract with Bombardier. Look at TC and the legacy streetcar replacements.................they go thru the public relations exercise of pretending to put the bids out to tender but everyone knew who would get the contract. Same with the subway cars. Any other major manufacturer on the planet could offer a "buy one get one free sale" but it wouldn't make a hoot of difference in Toronto or all of Ontario for that matter. Same goes for Quebec but not Cal/Edm. Vancouver's new Canada Line was not Bombardier and that would be heresy in Tor/Mon.
If Queen's Park is paying for the fleet then Toronto shouldn't even care but to say that there is any form of TRUE public tendering is an insult to anyone who knows anything about Canadian politics.
 
I understand that there will be a $49 million cancellation fee as the number of LRT cars ordered is near what the city ordered for TC.
I thought the $49 million was simply related to what Metrolinx had already spent on the Finch and Sheppard East projects, that the City would refund to Metrolinx and didn't include some of the further costs to come, such as any cancellation fees, which the City was also going to have to pay. If there's an amount related to cancelling the extra vehicles, then it hadn't been determined at the time the $49 million was announced - as even quite recently, Metrolinx said it was still in negotiation with Bombardier on how to adjust the contract.
 
I understand that there will be a $49 million cancellation fee as the number of LRT cars ordered is near what the city ordered for TC.

You sure about that?
I think the cancellation fees we a result of the Sheppard East LRT being nixed and the contracts that were awarded for its construction were terminated. I haven't heard of the TTC ordering LRT cars for the entire TC project.
 
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Metrolinx did order 182 cars for Sheppard East, Finch, Eglinton, and the Scarborough RT and announced this on June 16, 2010. At the time they did this, they said that 124 cars were for Eglinton/Scarborough and 58 cars were for Finch and Sheppard East.

Wow, I did not know that.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention; like I said, all I was aware of was the cancellation fees for the construction contracts awarded.
So correct me if I'm wrong, then obviously the TTC or the city are on the hook for 58 cancelled LRT vehicles?
 

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