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Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

The Metrolinx document that Rainforest linked to earlier in the thread showed that converting the line to LRT and extending it ("Option 3") has a slightly lower cost than upgrading it to ICTS Mark II and extending it ("Option 1") (see page 23). The capacity is the same (page 2). The user benefits are the same (page 18). The operating costs are the same (page 20). The travel time and ridership are the same (page 21).

So the benefits of converting to LRT are (1) a lower construction cost, (2) fleet/carhouse commonality with the Eglinton and Sheppard lines, and (3) the possibility of through-routing at Kennedy, even if it's not happening on day 1.

The only drawback that I can see is that construction will take longer.

From the report, seems like TTC really have a high standard... 4-cars MkII running at 108s headway only gives 10,000 pphpd for the SRT, whereas it give 17,500 pphpd in Vancouver. The SRT requires a whopping 19% spare, whereas the spare ratio in Vancouver is just 3-5% for the last 10 years. Base on Vancouver's standard, they would only need 52 cars instead of 108. I wonder what are they are going to do with those spare trains...
 
I doubt I would want to ride a vehicle that has no operator.

Why not? They ride on them in London, New York, Paris, Copenhagen, Barcelona, Lausanne, Lille, Lyon, Miami, Singapore, Vancouver, Dubai, Seoul, Tokyo, Taipei, Algiers, Milan, and elsewhere! Is it not a sufficiently proven technology for you?

Paris line 1 has no operators and it carries DOUBLE the ridership per kilometre that the YUS does.
 
Where are these vehicles? Every vehicle I've ridden on has had a driver.

Victoria Line, kinda.

The train is self-driving, and has been since the late 60's (London was first for train automation) but they still have an operator sitting in the cab. The operator closes the doors and watches for obstructions on the track.

DLR is driverless (no person in the cab) but they do have a minimum of one staff on the train.
 
Where are these vehicles? Every vehicle I've ridden on has had a driver.

Docklands. Operating since 1987. 34km network carrying over 200,000 people a day.

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Docklands. Operating since 1987. 34km network carrying over 200,000 people a day.

Still has someone to open/close the doors.

They're also certified as a driver to take over during a failure or emergency such as taking the train through a failed signal.


Both pilots can leave the pilot booth and most modern aircraft will continue to fly perfectly fine. I would say the aircraft flies itself rather than being pilotless because the pilots are still on staff and policy is that the aircraft cannot take-off without them being alert and ready.
 
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Still has someone to open/close the doors.

They're also certified as a driver to take over during a failure or emergency such as taking the train through a failed signal.


Both pilots can leave the pilot booth and most modern aircraft will continue to fly perfectly fine. I would say the aircraft flies itself rather than being pilotless because the pilots are still on staff and policy is that the aircraft cannot take-off without them being alert and ready.

Please remember that "cruise-control" on your car is NOT "auto-pilot". You cannot set cruise-control and then do something else other than driving.
 
Please remember that "cruise-control" on your car is NOT "auto-pilot". You cannot set cruise-control and then do something else other than driving.

I'm sorry I don't understand. Are you saying the DLR does have an operator or that it does not have an operator?
 
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Lest we forget, there will be through service at Kennedy via all day GO service along the Stouffville line. The way I see it, Kennedy will become a hub for Scarborough: Those heading to midtown will take the Eglinton LRT, those heading to Yorkville will take the Danforth subway, those heading downtown will take the GO train south, those heading to northwest Scarborough will take the GO train north, and those heading to northeast Scarborough will take the SRT. Hopefully some much needed intensification will occur around the station, so that it can become a destination rather than just a transfer point.

Anyways, looks like we may be waiting a little longer than expected before we get our Eglinton LRT:

TTC warns more time needed on Eglinton LRT construction

A panel of leading North American transit and construction experts is casting doubt on the province’s ambitious promise to complete the Eglinton LRT by 2020 using a public-private partnership.

That schedule “seems unrealistic,” according to a committee assembled by the American Public Transit Association at the request of the TTC.

Its preliminary report will be part of a long-awaited update about the four Toronto LRT projects at the Toronto Transit Commission meeting on Wednesday.

The TTC’s role in managing construction of LRTs on Eglinton, Finch, Sheppard and the Scarborough RT has been simmering for about two years, since Metrolinx put Infrastructure Ontario in charge of building the provincially funded $8.4-billion projects.

Although the TTC has a consultative role and is expected to operate the lines, including Eglinton when it opens in 2020, its managers say they have no real authority over how the project is built and fear they will be on the hot seat for community complaints they can’t solve.

“What’s the TTC going to do? We’re going to man the community offices to clean the blood off the floor,” said one senior official, who acknowledged that no matter who is in charge, a certain amount of community disruption is inevitable.

TTC chair Karen Stintz said it’s not clear what role, if any, the TTC has during construction.

“If we’re going to operate this line and sign off on safety we don’t want to get to the end and find out there are all these problems,” she said.

“We know we’re the operator. But do we have a role in the (community) consultation process? We have until now,” she said.

TTC officials say the American Public Transit Association review validates their position that they need more say and the job needs another two or three years.

“The TTC has to have a major influence, role and authority,” the panel reported.

But Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig said the TTC already has a key role.

“The way they’re defining their role — and I’d like to emphasize this is the way they’re defining their role — is that they’re positioned as the operator. . . . In the construction phase they will be signing off on some critical design elements — for example, the interchange stations because they will have to be so much integrated in the existing subway station at Kennedy for example.”

The TTC, points to the transit association’s finding that, the 2020 schedule “appears overly aggressive when considering the need to stage construction . . . especially for the Eglinton line.”

Metrolinx officials agree it’s an aggressive timeline.

“Our objective is 2020. We think it’s achievable. We recognize it’s a tight schedule. We’ll get clarity on whether our partner believes they can deliver to that schedule,” said McCuaig.

Even when the TTC was leading the projects, public-private contracts were part of the scenario to build maintenance and storage facilities and the SRT.

But then the government gave the lead to Infrastructure Ontario, which it maintains has a good record of bringing projects in on time and on budget, although most of that is based on building courthouses and hospitals.

“Their feeling is that the TTC is committed to its old way of doing business,” said Stintz. But that’s not the case.

How the contracts are structured, how much of Eglinton is torn up at the same time and who answers community concerns about that, are the issues, said Stintz.

http://www.thestar.com/news/transpo...more-time-needed-on-eglinton-lrt-construction
 
Still has someone to open/close the doors.

They're also certified as a driver to take over during a failure or emergency such as taking the train through a failed signal.

OK, you got me. Of the 17 systems I listed (still not all in the world), ONE still keeps a staff member on board to close the doors. (And there are no "signals" as the DLR uses a moving block system.)

What of the rest? Paris? Vancouver? Copenhagen? Are these dangerous or unreliable systems without a staff member on board?
 
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It is the union. I understand the need to fight slashing jobs, but with the SRT and Eglinton Line, those jobs didn't previously exist. So the union here insists on creating jobs that may not be necessary.
 
Elevating the eastern part of Eglinton might be more expensive but makes more sense economically in the long term by having no drivers on the trains.

That's really too bad.

Oh, BTW, those line belongs to Metrolinx. They could have easily made the SRT merging with Eglinton driverless by removing those line from the TTC.

Metrolinx is truly cluless
 
Elevating the eastern part of Eglinton might be more expensive but makes more sense economically in the long term by having no drivers on the trains.

That's really too bad.

Oh, BTW, those line belongs to Metrolinx. They could have easily made the SRT merging with Eglinton driverless by removing those line from the TTC.

Metrolinx is truly cluless

OK, while I agree with you about the merits of driverless trains from an economic standpoint, I don't think you will ever recoup the costs of not hiring additional drivers by spending the extra billions elevating the Scarborough portion of the LRT.

That's not to say that we shouldn't grade separate (or use a heavier technology on) the entire Eglinton line, but that we shouldn't use labour savings from not hiring drivers as our justification.
 
OK, while I agree with you about the merits of driverless trains from an economic standpoint, I don't think you will ever recoup the costs of not hiring additional drivers by spending the extra billions elevating the Scarborough portion of the LRT.

That's not to say that we shouldn't grade separate (or use a heavier technology on) the entire Eglinton line, but that we shouldn't use labour savings from not hiring drivers as our justification.

To add to your comment, why Metrolinx would give up on the MOU version of Scarborough-Eglinton crosstown that would have had double the ridership is truly puzzling to me....
 
To add to your comment, why Metrolinx would give up on the MOU version of Scarborough-Eglinton crosstown that would have had double the ridership is truly puzzling to me....

It's only doubled because the eastern leg of the Danforth line would get cleared out.
 

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