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Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

fanoftoronto said:
The issue is not for the intersection that has LRT stops, but rather ones that don't have stops. If there's a Green light, the LRVs need to slowdown to 25km/h while crossing the intersection. This greatly slows down the overall average speed of the surface section.
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honestly why the slow order? cars cross faster than that normally... just red tape BS from brainless city servants :mad:

does Ivan know a contact from city services that can answer that question?
 
fanoftoronto said:
One final email response from Ivan regarding this issue.

View attachment 498748

It's disappointing that not only is there a 50 km/h speed limit on the LRV's in the above ground sections and a lack of true signal priority, but also that the LRV's will be forced to slow down to 25 km/h at intersections. This further gimps the speed on the surface section.

All this because the City of Toronto wants to prioritize single occupancy cars over 150 occupancy LRTs.
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Split the line already - we all know this is what's going to happen
 
T3G said:
Can we import someone from a grown up tram operation, like Prague or Vienna or Budapest, to head our transit systems?

I would love it if the TTC and/or Metrolinx (I assume this rule came from the TTC, since they're afraid of their own shadow) could explain how come buses don't have to slow down when passing through intersections.
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The TTC is absolutely paranoid about car streetcar collisions, and they are particularly afraid of collisions where cars run red lights and the streetcar is unable to stop in time.

Since the TTC is self insured, these collisions often result in long legal battles that cost the TTC money.
 
IRT_BMT_IND said:
The TTC is absolutely paranoid about car streetcar collisions, and they are particularly afraid of collisions where cars run red lights and the streetcar is unable to stop in time.

Since the TTC is self insured, these collisions often result in long legal battles that cost the TTC money.
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Parkdalian said:
I'm all for high speeds on the Eglinton LRT, but I don't know if an LRT barrelling through an intersection is compatible with safety considerations.
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But these things can also occur with buses.

Proponents of buses will say that buses can divert around, which is true, but is not a panacea. If a car or pedestrian jumps out in front of the bus suddenly, the driver will need time to react, which isn't always possible, and if the driver tries to divert around, and hits a vehicle in the lane next to the bus, it's no better than ramming the original object. There are a lot of complicated factors that figure into the discussion, and there is a lot of risk associated with high speed buses too.

This doesn't mean that I endorse artificially slowing down buses, but if they're going to be paranoid about collisions, they need to be consistent about it. As it stands, it is at best highly questionable that a tram has to slowly lumber down Spadina Avenue, but there are no problems whatsoever with buses running 50-80 km/h down suburban roadways. And that's before we even get into the Airport Express bus.
 
Parkdalian said:
I'm all for high speeds on the Eglinton LRT, but I don't know if an LRT barrelling through an intersection is compatible with safety considerations. We don't want the LRT hitting pedestrians crossing against the light, for instance.
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Kneecapping a rapid transit corridor because of irresponsible idiots sucks no matter how you try to frame it.
 
APTA-2048 said:
Kneecapping a rapid transit corridor because of irresponsible idiots sucks no matter how you try to frame it.
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The priority of any governmental infrastructure project should be safety. I think things can be done to improve signal priority, but I can definitely understand their concerns about intersections. Let's face it, if the LRT hits someone, that's going to *really* slow down the corridor.
 
T3G said:
But these things can also occur with buses.

Proponents of buses will say that buses can divert around, which is true, but is not a panacea. If a car or pedestrian jumps out in front of the bus suddenly, the driver will need time to react, which isn't always possible, and if the driver tries to divert around, and hits a vehicle in the lane next to the bus, it's no better than ramming the original object. There are a lot of complicated factors that figure into the discussion, and there is a lot of risk associated with high speed buses too.

This doesn't mean that I endorse artificially slowing down buses, but if they're going to be paranoid about collisions, they need to be consistent about it. As it stands, it is at best highly questionable that a tram has to slowly lumber down Spadina Avenue, but there are no problems whatsoever with buses running 50-80 km/h down suburban roadways. And that's before we even get into the Airport Express bus.
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The technical reasoning for buses not having to slow down is friction. Rubber tires on asphalt is known to have good stopping performance, much better than steel wheels on steel track. Officially, buses are considered similar to automobiles. As a result of this, the signal timing is different for LRVs that are both longer and take a longer time to stop. While international practices do have LRVs slow down at intersections, it is typically much less cautious than 25 km/h. I can confirm that is a TTC request for all the LRT lines they will operate due to concerns of collisions with pedestrians. There is generally a lower tolerance in North America for risk and practices tend to get softened for the NA market, this is also partially due to the more litigious nature of this side of the world.

While we cannot argue with physics, there is still no need to slow down trains to 25 km/h. However, there should still be an expectation that they will slow down through intersections.
 
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IRT_BMT_IND said:
The TTC is absolutely paranoid about car streetcar collisions, and they are particularly afraid of collisions where cars run red lights and the streetcar is unable to stop in time.

Since the TTC is self insured, these collisions often result in long legal battles that cost the TTC money.
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I've thought they should've installed short railway crossing arms for the left turn lanes on Eglinton, which I think would be the most likely source of cars that end up in a collision with a LRV. Which should allow the TTC to permit full speeds through intersections.
 
Parkdalian said:
The priority of any governmental infrastructure project should be safety.
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No, the priority of any governmental (or privately owned) infrastructure project should be to balance safety against utility. If you go too far in either direction, you run into problems.

How many VIA and GO trains have hit people trespassing on railway crossings? If you forced the trains to slow down to 10 km/h at every level crossing, you would eliminate the risk of this occurring and thus make the trains very safe, but it would also render them completely worthless as a form of transport.

Safety where it is meaningful is of course important, but I am against frivolous safety measures that give the general public a false sense of security. Our population is raised from an early age to believe that the transportation world revolves around them, with school buses that stop traffic both ways, and then they grow up and act shocked - shocked - that in the real world, traffic doesn't stop to let them cross the road wherever they feel they should.
 
Voltz said:
I've thought they should've installed short railway crossing arms for the left turn lanes on Eglinton, which I think would be the most likely source of cars that end up in a collision with a LRV. Which should allow the TTC to permit full speeds through intersections.
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arent they also implementing the left turn signal sequencing like the viva rapidways? that should mitigate most issues save for the actual brainless drivers. you can stop every stupid incident. might as well not build an LRT then....
 
While the LRVs are capable to operate at 60+ km/h (Flexity Freedom maximum speed is 80 km/h) on the surface sections, they will be operated by the drivers. However, the signal timing will likely be set for 50 km/h. Don't know if that includes the dwell time (to allow passengers to embark or disembark) at the stops are being included in an "average".
 
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While the operations of the surface section on Eglinton will remain to be seen in practice, you may all be happy to hear that it is much more optimized on Finch.
 
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