Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[ARG1]

Well in Montreal this summer, rode the green line to the east terminal. Train unload and then continue to the crossover and use one of the 2 stub tracks not having a train on it. A few minute later, the train sitting on the stub track pulls into the station to go west leaving an opening for the next eastbound train. Would say off hand that you are looking at less than a minute to use the crossover and to allow the waiting train to depart. What I saw was both trains sitting for about a minute before the westbound departed the stub end.

I think headway was 2:30 and seem to be time that both trains arrive at the station at the same time. Those in Montreal can tell better than me since I never time it nor do more than 2 movements. Haven't seen the ends of the other lines nor the green west end to see if this the same I saw. Could be wrong, but you may be able to get headway down to 90-120 seconds using this method.

Have seen driver swap before doing the stub end move in a few places. Driver gets on the opposite end going into the stub end and becomes the driver going the opposite direction with the other driver getting off at the station. Side platforms take more time to change drivers that you need to have 2 drivers per end with one walking from one platform to the other while the other is ready to take over of the incoming train. Centre platform would only require one driver.

The question then is how much time do side platforms save the rider? By having a side platform arrangement you don't have to worry about a train slowly chugging towards the final station while it waits for a train to come out of the platform, which can be some of the most grueling aspects of the TTC Subway. The Subway goes straight to the terminus station, you get off, no time is wasted. How long it takes the train to double back and get back to the platform is of no concern to the rider at that point.

 

[drum118]

The question then is how much time do side platforms save the rider? By having a side platform arrangement you don't have to worry about a train slowly chugging towards the final station while it waits for a train to come out of the platform, which can be some of the most grueling aspects of the TTC Subway. The Subway goes straight to the terminus station, you get off, no time is wasted. How long it takes the train to double back and get back to the platform is of no concern to the rider at that point.

Neither type of platform waste riders time, but how they get to them does waste rider time about 10 seconds depending on the access from the surface to the concourse.

If you have a straight access from the street to the centre platform, this will be the fastest route for the rider. If you do the straight from street to the concourse and then to side platform, it the time to walk from centre to the side. Not all stations are built this way to the point access from the street can be a number of combinations that adds more time for riders than the access to the X style platform.

As long there is no crossover in front of centre platform, very little different between the side and the centre for riders. From the centre platform to the stub end will see extra seconds in using the crossover that has no effect on riders.

Where entrance to stations are place are the wasted time and only have to look at Runnymede and Main Station to see it compare to Keele or St Clair.

 

[Tramways]

And? Would you prefer our infra remain the same for another 20 years? People who complain the loudest about road construction usually complain the most about the poor road conditios that construction fixes, and people who complain most about transit construction also complain the most about road congestion. It's amazing, really.

Eglinton Crosstown is long overdue (but for Mike Harris, it would have been part of the full subway network).
It's a shame that the ones most affected by its construction, the ones who could have benefitted the most, are the many small businesses which used to line the street in those less-than-glamorous neighbourhoods.
Most are now gone. Only the most tenacious are still there.
Will those survivors thrive or will they be pushed out once the line is actually running?

 

[Tramways]

Those wonderful communities were doomed the moment the Crosstown project was approved. Development follows transit, and rents rise with development. Even the businesses that survive will see at minimum their leases terminated - as landlords redevelop. And when they hunt for new space, the rents will be higher, possibly prohibitively so.

The reality is, neighbourhoods move around. I’m not celebrating the impact on Eglinton, but I don’t think we can stand in the way of this kind of change.

The hideous torture of the past 7-8 years’ construction is salt in the wound - moreso since it probably could have been mitigated if we hadn’t been in love with deep bore tunnelling. If there are particular structures that deserve preservation due to their association with these communities, there may still be time to have them designated before the bulldozers arrive - but I doubt that would keep these particular communities themselves in situ.

- Paul

So in short, to the small businesses who've had to endure ... "Them's the breaks. Don't let the door hit you on the way out." ...?
Nice.

But the particularly devastated stretch is between Keele and the Allen Expy.
It is most definitely _not_ anywhere near the north border of ForestHill.
It's actually surrounded by inexpensive housing (apartments blocks, working-class houses) which had historically provided workers for the businesses in the industrial sections to the north and clients for the businesses along that stretch.
If any landlords along that stretch are expecting leasing enquiries from Chanel or Tiffany, they might be waiting a while.

 

[crs1026]

So in short, to the small businesses who've had to endure ... "Them's the breaks. Don't let the door hit you on the way out." ...?
Nice.

But the particularly devastated stretch is between Keele and the Allen Expy.
It is most definitely _not_ anywhere near the north border of ForestHill.
It's actually surrounded by inexpensive housing (apartments blocks, working-class houses) which had historically provided workers for the businesses in the industrial sections to the north and clients for the businesses along that stretch.
If any landlords along that stretch are expecting leasing enquiries from Chanel or Tiffany, they might be waiting a while.

You need to check your facts. Here's the current snapshot of residences for sale along that stretch, courtesy the MLS web site. Of the residential properties shown, only two are listed for less than $1M, at $930K and $949K respectively. The rest are already over $1M, with one listed for $1.7M. Some are clearly already refurb'ed.

I'm not a fan of gentrification - but where transit is built, it is unstoppable.

The only good news is that many of the residences that will turn over in the area, and some of the commercial buildings too, are still in the hands of long-term owners of modest origins, who now have a solid retirement windfall thanks to the rising real estate prices. Gentrification has its trickle-down benefits.

The bigger issue is that no neighbourhood in the City is ever frozen in time. Look how many different communities and ethnicities have passed through Kensington, St Clair, Dufferin-College, Weston, the Junction. These communities haven't vanished, they are more vibrant somewhere else in the city. Eglinton West will be no different

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

My point was that side platform terminal stations have shorter crossovers that require less time for the trains to go through them, and a train using the crossover is less likely to block an arriving or departing train. Also, placing the crossovers beyond the station is required so that one side is for loading and the other is for unloading.

But that's a completely and totally different scenario, and not one that you can retrofit into an existing situation. Which is what a lot of the existing conversation has been about thus far.

Couldn't you improve throughput with the crossover or crossover and pocket setup past the terminal station with step-back crewing?

My rough thought on how this would work for a single train is:

1. Train pulls in to it's right side track at terminal station
2. The next operator gets on the train at the terminal station
3. Train pulls into an empty tail track
4. New operator immediately takes over from initial operator
5. Train pulls out into the opposite track from step 1
6. Initial operator disembarks.
7. Train leaves the station

To me it seems like if you tried to pull off something similar with a crossover before the station, every time a train leaves the station via the crossover it would block the incoming track with its movements. With the above, incoming trains can still hit the platform while the train is being reversed in the tail track once they clear the switch(es) past the terminal station.

I'll admit, I have no idea how long step 4 would take for 2 operators to do the handover, but I'm assuming one would optimize the tail track infrastructure to increase train storage past the terminal to allow for an efficient operation. Is there some kind of signal issue where a train in the tail tracks somehow impacts any train coming behind it?

That is already done today to a degree, and is why the Yonge Subway is scheduled to be so frequent at rush hours. In fact, prior to the first lockdown the TTC was using a double-step-back during the morning rush hours - the crew would step off of the first train, and then take over the third train, giving them a bit of an extra break and helping build a bit more resiliancy back into the schedule. And none of it takes into account the physical limitations of the trackwork and signal system, which are the actual factors determining the minimum headways that the system is capable of.

The steps you are missing are:
- the amount of time the train occupies the interlocking plant in the first direction.
- the amount of time the signal system takes to detect that the interlocking plant is clear, and can then unlock the switches
- the amount of time for the points to move
- the amount of time for the signal system to lock the switches
- the amount of time for the signal system to determine that the routing beyond the interlocking is clear, and for how far
- the amount of time the train occupies the interlocking plant in the second direction
- the amount of time the signal system takes to detect that the interlocking plant is clear, and can then unlock the switches

Of these, the most critical steps - and the ones that are the most variable depending on the configuration of the trackwork - are the steps involving the trains actually traversing the crossovers and thus the amount of time that any single train occupies the interlocking. The other steps do take seconds, and while there is a bit of variability from signal system-to-signal system, by and large they all happen quick enough to not be a major factor.

Dan

 

[toronto647]

That's closer to 2km (less the stops and intersections), but your point is valid. But I can also understand not wanting to run the grass between Aga Khan and Victoria Park. I see the development potential and the hopes for what the Golden Mile can/might be, but that other chunk is much more limited in it's potential for an urban streetscape

I am a bit confused... Will there not be green grass on the whole portion of the above ground lrt? i.e. leslie to don mills and Aga khan to kennedy? if not which portions will have it and why not all of it? so dumb

 

[Jane2021]

I wonder when they will start training buses in the new bus terminals?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I am a bit confused... Will there not be green grass on the whole portion of the above ground lrt? i.e. leslie to don mills and Aga khan to kennedy? if not which portions will have it and why not all of it? so dumb

I think they said sections at stops won't have grass so that emergency vehicles can park at them when responding to calls there may be some other sections that won't have grass due to that reason as well or other reasons.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I wonder when they will start training buses in the new bus terminals?

Probably not until about a month or so before the official opening of the line as right now they are still a construction site.

 

[Tramways]

You need to check your facts. Here's the current snapshot of residences for sale along that stretch, courtesy the MLS web site. Of the residential properties shown, only two are listed for less than $1M, at $930K and $949K respectively. The rest are already over $1M, with one listed for $1.7M. Some are clearly already refurb'ed.

Interesting choice for facts.

MLS covers home _sales_ -- with this being one of the few remaining "affordable" (with help of Bank-of-Mom+Dad) areas within easy reach of downtown. This is an area that desperate buyers will settle for, after being priced out of their 1st-thru-9th choices.

What MLS does not cover is _rentals_.
A quick check of GoogleSatellite will reveal apartments bdgs on Marlee, around Keele/Trethewey and Dufferin+Vaughn.
Best of luck trying to "gentrify" those apartment blocks.

 

[drum118]

Got to love the timeline for subway lines

6-7 years for this phase is twice as long than the surface and triple the cost.

CROSSTOWN: Etobicoke residents will not have access to the Eglinton LRT before 2030​

 

[cplchanb]

Got to love the timeline for subway lines

6-7 years for this phase is twice as long than the surface and triple the cost.

CROSSTOWN: Etobicoke residents will not have access to the Eglinton LRT before 2030​

Well you reap what you sow. Had it been surface, or even elevated construction may have taken only half the time. Instead these Fordites whined and complained and forced them to plan it as a "subway".
Has noone learned already that subway in toronto is a snail pace project??? Not to mention the liklihood of bad soil just like what was discovered at Elginton/Yonge

 

[ARG1]

Got to love the timeline for subway lines

6-7 years for this phase is twice as long than the surface and triple the cost.

CROSSTOWN: Etobicoke residents will not have access to the Eglinton LRT before 2030​

How is this news though?

Again this is something we have known about the project for like months if not years and only now theStar is making an article about it?

 

[Amare]

Funny thing is, expropriating those townhouses and putting the line in a trench would've been a cheaper solution then what we're going to be getting. The whole reason this thing is being tunneled is because Doug and his brother graciously decided to sell off the Richview Expressway lands, so we're ultimately wasting money at the end of the day, but alas that train is gone.

But as was mentioned, I dont see how this is news. Actually in fact, we probably wouldnt have seen anything on this stretch period until ~2040 under John Tory's original plan. He put his hand up and volunteered to take the costs off the provinces books, and had the city to take control of the plan, ultimately putting it on the city's never ending list of approved but unfunded projects.