Toronto/Chicago comparisons

[rbt]

Although this thread is about comparison with Chicago but where does Toronto lie in comparison with New York? Is Toronto closing the gap (however big that may be) or is New York gaining lead in 150m+ buildings?

New York (Manhattan) is still building rapidly (~35 150m+ buildings under construction). It doesn't tend to show in the tower crane reports because they often use other lifting devices due to limited space between buildings.

NY does, however, have both hands tied behind it's back in the form of a strictly enforced density limit for the island. Building tall requires purchasing density (air-rights) on other properties and transferring them to yours. The super-skinny buildings are a result of that; construction cost is considerably less than the initial land purchase price. Removing those zoning limits would be political suicide; many billionaires have literally purchased their view based on those regulations. Someone sneaky might try putting a building on stilts though (a 300m elevator shaft with a 30m 20-unit building on top) though technically that won't be a skyscraper for the same reason CN Tower isn't.

If Toronto continues to build and Manhattan continues to have a strict density limit, then at some point (doubt we will live to see it) Toronto will pass it in 150m buildings.

 

[Deadpool X]

Toronto has same or fewer number of 150m+ buildings under construction despite New York's limitations. The gap seems to be increasing than reducing. Although in percentage terms, Toronto will be gaining for sure because of its smaller base.

 

[afransen]

I don't think Toronto has any hope of meaningfully catching up with NYC. Never going to compete at that level in North America or world stage (when it comes to buildings or other things).

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

By 100m+ buildings the City of Toronto will likely move ahead of the City of Chicago some time in 2021. It will happen by 150m+ and 200m+ too but that will take longer. Perhaps 2025? If proposals are realized Toronto will zoom way out in front. In a few years NYC will be the only North American skyline left to reel in. A much tougher ask, of course.

There's also the 300m+ metric but the point is that, quantitatively, Chicago's big lead over Toronto has dwindled to almost nothing. Toronto will pass Chicago..... and in a few years. I suspect some are so used to Chicago's skyline being substantially bigger that it's incomprehensible that Toronto is on the verge of passing it. I might add that these figures don't include Mississauga and Vaughan and we all know there's a ton of stuff going up in both places.


CITY OF CHICAGO
100m+ Built: 336
100m+ U/C: 10
Total: 346
Proposals: 19
Potential Tally: 365

CITY OF TORONTO
100m+ Built: 284
100m+ U/C: 105
Total: 389
Proposals: 288
Potential Tally: 677

CITY OF CHICAGO
150m+ Built: 130
150m+ U/C: 7
Total: 137
Proposals: 12
Potential Tally: 149

CITY OF TORONTO
150m+ Built: 74
150m+ U/C: 35
Total: 109
Proposals: 112
Potential Tally: 221

CITY OF CHICAGO
200m+ Built: 32
200m+ U/C: 6
Total: 38
Proposals: 6
Potential Tally: 46

CITY OF TORONTO
200m+ Built: 23
200m+ U/C: 10
Total: 33
Proposals: 40
Potential Tally: 73

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Quoting your post for this thread, it is a good reference point.

 

[Memph]

Although this thread is about comparison with Chicago but where does Toronto lie in comparison with New York? Is Toronto closing the gap (however big that may be) or is New York gaining lead in 150m+ buildings?

New York City built about 50% more buildings over 150m in the 2010s decade. However, the number under construction in Toronto is currently the same, and an increasingly high percentage of Toronto's new buildings proposed/UC are over 150m, so I think Toronto will transition from keeping up in the early 2020s, to starting to slowly close the gap in the mid-late 2020s, and then more rapidly closing the gap in the 2030s, and possibly overtaking in the 2040s.

Note that we're talking about only 150m+ buildings though. Only about 4% of New York City's highrises are over 150m+ compared to 16% of Toronto's U/C buildings and 26% of Toronto's proposed buildings. While it's possible Toronto will at some point overtake NYC for 150m+ buildings, overtaking NYC for highrises overall may never happen since that would take decades longer if current trends hold. And current trends may very well not hold considering worldwide population growth is expected to slow significantly in the middle of the century and stop by the end of the century. I'm also not sure Toronto will ever overtake NYC in terms of the top 10 tallest buildings in each city, which for New York would be mostly in the 400m+ range, since buildings of those heights are mostly vanity projects and/or catering to the super-rich and don't really make sense for the more ordinary professional/white collar class.

 

[Northern Light]

Not a meant as a slag of Chicago...........but for lack of somewhere more sensible to put this..........

Chicago's crime continues to spiral......

33 murders so far this year..............compared with 2 in Toronto.

Chicago is the (slightly) smaller City.

How that is not a matter for military intervention is beyond me.

 

[Towered]

Not a meant as a slag of Chicago...........but for lack of somewhere more sensible to put this..........

Chicago's crime continues to spiral......

33 murders so far this year..............compared with 2 in Toronto.

Chicago is the (slightly) smaller City.

How that is not a matter for military intervention is beyond me.

What would you envision the military do in order to dramatically reduce the crime levels?

 

[Northern Light]

What would you envision the military do in order to dramatically reduce the crime levels?

In truth, probably not much, I was being a tad hyperbolic there.

But at the same time, I think it reads as an out of control train wreck.

The military, would only be useful in so far some variant of Marshall law were imposed.

Which is not something I would be keen to see, though in the current Covid context we're wandering close to that in places with curfew and such.

But just imagine the uproar (and rightly so) if Toronto were on pace for nearly 600 homicides (probably more in that winter tends to see fewer murders typically).

To me this is a situation that demands a high level of intervention with a sense of urgency. Given that the situation involves armed conflict....

But I digress there probably isn't a good, legal, politically viable role for them.

 

[gabe]

Not a meant as a slag of Chicago...........but for lack of somewhere more sensible to put this..........

Chicago's crime continues to spiral......

33 murders so far this year..............compared with 2 in Toronto.

Chicago is the (slightly) smaller City.

How that is not a matter for military intervention is beyond me.

There was an horrific shooting rampage this month, the guy randomly shot 7 people and killed four.

'I don't feel whole': Families struggle with new reality after shooting spree in Chicago, Evanston

A 15-year-old girl is fighting for her life right now, and a family travelled to Chicago from China for their son who was killed by an enraged serial shooter.

www.fox32chicago.com

Why is this not bigger news? No one seems to care about the black on black murders. Where BLM and the politicians? Young black kids and other innocent people in the community are losing their lives to gun violence and not from a cop or white person. It's so sad, thousands of families a year ripped apart by senseless gun violence.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Nice try, you almost made me comment on the violence in Chicago and elsewhere in the US, but I thought better of it.

Not going there.

No point antagonising the "progressives" around here. Done enough of that in the last two weeks.

 

[afransen]

In truth, probably not much, I was being a tad hyperbolic there.

But at the same time, I think it reads as an out of control train wreck.

The military, would only be useful in so far some variant of Marshall law were imposed.

Which is not something I would be keen to see, though in the current Covid context we're wandering close to that in places with curfew and such.

But just imagine the uproar (and rightly so) if Toronto were on pace for nearly 600 homicides (probably more in that winter tends to see fewer murders typically).

To me this is a situation that demands a high level of intervention with a sense of urgency. Given that the situation involves armed conflict....

But I digress there probably isn't a good, legal, politically viable role for them.

And really, those murders are contained in a certain community/subset of Chicago. Could go full Baghdad martial law with national guard with automatic rifles on every streetcorner.

As I recall travelling in France, it really was not unusual to see troops in combat fatigues and carrying an assault rifle. Really rather jarring for someone used to Canada where such a sight is pretty rare. Of course, they've had more problems with terrorism of late.

 

[Paclo]

I think this forum might appreciate my latest data visualization and I believe this is the most appropriate thread for it: comparing built, U/C & proposed buildings in Chicago vs. Toronto at certain height thresholds.

Feedback is appreciated

Chicago Vs. Toronto Skyscraper Comparison GIF by RMD Stats | Gfycat

Watch and share Chicago Vs. Toronto Skyscraper Comparison GIFs by RMD Stats on Gfycat

gfycat.com

 

[rdaner]

Saw this estimate on SSP and thought that it was interesting.

Originally Posted by BlackDog204
Population of Canadian CMA on October 1, 2023:

Toronto: 6,974,900
Montreal: 4,519,000
Vancouver: 2,963,600
Calgary: 1,698,000
Edmonton: 1,598,200
Ottawa-Gatineau: 1,564,400
Winnipeg: 904,200
Quebec: 877,000
Hamilton: 853,300
Kitchener: 647,900
London: 600,500
Halifax: 500,100
St.Catherines-Niagara 469,300
Oshawa: 466,200
Victoria 440,900
Windsor 379,200
Saskatoon: 359,600
Regina: 277,900
Kelowna: 245,600
Barrie: 237,000


Blue: population is likely greater than what is posted
Red: population is likely less than what is posted

GTA plus Oshawa and Hamilton is 8,294,400 in 2023 compared to 7,402,720 in 2021. But some analysts include Brantford and Barrie which brings it to 8,661,400.

Chicago SMA in 2022 is estimated at 9,274,140.

 

[Towered]

Saw this estimate on SSP and thought that it was interesting.

Originally Posted by BlackDog204
Population of Canadian CMA on October 1, 2023:

Toronto: 6,974,900
Montreal: 4,519,000
Vancouver: 2,963,600
Calgary: 1,698,000
Edmonton: 1,598,200
Ottawa-Gatineau: 1,564,400
Winnipeg: 904,200
Quebec: 877,000
Hamilton: 853,300
Kitchener: 647,900
London: 600,500
Halifax: 500,100
St.Catherines-Niagara 469,300
Oshawa: 466,200
Victoria 440,900
Windsor 379,200
Saskatoon: 359,600
Regina: 277,900
Kelowna: 245,600
Barrie: 237,000


Blue: population is likely greater than what is posted
Red: population is likely less than what is posted

GTA plus Oshawa and Hamilton is 8,294,400 in 2023 compared to 7,402,720 in 2021. But some analysts include Brantford and Barrie which brings it to 8,661,400.

Chicago SMA in 2022 is estimated at 9,274,140.

I'm guessing that "Toronto" figure includes Burlington, Oakville, Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham, Pickering, Whitby, and Ajax...or are those last 3 cities thrown in with Oshawa??

What does Hamilton include?

"Kitchener" must also mean Waterloo, Cambridge and Guelph??

And most fascinatingly, what does the awful Barrie include to get such a number?

 

[Northern Light]

GTA plus Oshawa and Hamilton is 8,294,400 in 2023 compared to 7,402,720 in 2021. But some analysts include Brantford and Barrie which brings it to 8,661,400.

Chicago SMA in 2022 is estimated at 9,274,140.

For clarification.

In an apples to apples comparison, the Greater Golden Horsehoe is the local equivalent to Chicagoland.

The GGH hit 10.2M in 2021 and has only grown since.

From the 2023 Auditor General's Report on Land Use Planning:

https://auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports/en23/1-10FU_land-use_en23.pdf

From the above:

In the 25-year period from 1996 to 2021, the GGH’s population
increased by 57%, from 6.5 million to an estimated
10.2 million. The Ministry forecasts it will increase
another 45% to 14.8 million by 2051.

* The ministry has subsequently revised the projection to 14.9M