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Toronto/Chicago comparisons

Tewder said:
Better hot dogs in Chicago... although I like the Polish sausages in Toronto. Yum!!
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Yeah. Too bad until recently Chicago had little street food.
TheTigerMaster said:
He did say that transit in Chicago may be better and that they have more "cool stuff" to see (this is changing). But if he had the opportunity to move, Toronto would win hands down.
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May? We can't even build LRT without a war. They shut down half the red line with minor complaint. Look what happened. I bet the STC extension is going to be a daily money loser by 2030.

I disagree they have more cool stuff. That's only because they have all their stuff in the Loop and along the lake. Toronto's stuff is much more spread out and nearly impossible to get to with transit outside downtown.
 
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I can't comment on how much cool stuff Chicago has or not but the quality and depth of their high culture institutions (art gallery, museum etc.) is impressive and likely unbeatable by Toronto in the future. On the other hand Toronto has been improving both in terms of the quality and number of "attractions".
 
TrickyRicky said:
I can't comment on how much cool stuff Chicago has or not but the quality and depth of their high culture institutions (art gallery, museum etc.) is impressive and likely unbeatable by Toronto in the future. On the other hand Toronto has been improving both in terms of the quality and number of "attractions".
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Most Chicago institutions are seen as superior to Toronto's analogues. That doesn't make it a 'better city' (whatever that means), but it definitely contributes to a sense that it's got more/better stuff.

UChicago >UToronto. MS&I > OSC (by so much). AIC > AGO. Second City Chicago > Second City Toronto. Chicago's museums are better than the ROM. Big Star > Grand Electric. Alinea > Toronto doesn't even have a 3 Star. Magnificent Mile > Bloor Street. Northwestern University's arguably better than Toronto, certainly better than York. So on and so on.

That's not meant to belittle Toronto, or to paper over Chicago's numerous flaws, but I think when some Torontonians get all flustered about people finding Chicago to 'have more cool stuff' we need to remember there's more than a grain of truth to that.
 
I mean, Chicagoland is still a larger urban region than the Golden Horseshoe, right? If you consider Chicago as the economic and cultural hub of the Midwest, which has like 2x the population of Canada, or even just the capital of the Wisconsin-Illinois-Indiana tri-state area, it's not necessarily surprising that it can come across as a 'bigger' city than Toronto.
 
diminutive said:
Most Chicago institutions are seen as superior to Toronto's analogues. That doesn't make it a 'better city' (whatever that means), but it definitely contributes to a sense that it's got more/better stuff.

UChicago >UToronto. MS&I > OSC (by so much). AIC > AGO. Second City Chicago > Second City Toronto. Chicago's museums are better than the ROM. Big Star > Grand Electric. Alinea > Toronto doesn't even have a 3 Star. Magnificent Mile > Bloor Street. Northwestern University's arguably better than Toronto, certainly better than York. So on and so on.

That's not meant to belittle Toronto, or to paper over Chicago's numerous flaws, but I think when some Torontonians get all flustered about people finding Chicago to 'have more cool stuff' we need to remember there's more than a grain of truth to that.
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Chicago has better cultural institutions, thanks to its huge importance in an era that was interested in institution-building. TIFF is our great exception. NU and UC are both more selective than U of T but U of T has been gaining ground. It's definitely superior to NU in research.

These are things you can point to, entities that people identify with the city. It's the stuff that you can put a finger on on a map. At this point though I'd argue Toronto has the superior culture and its institutions need to catch up. Toronto's recent music success is evidence of this.

For people who actually live in either place though, these are bells and whistles.
 
Lansdude said:
These are things you can point to, entities that people identify with the city. It's the stuff that you can put a finger on on a map. At this point though I'd argue Toronto has the superior culture and its institutions need to catch up. Toronto's recent music success is evidence of this.

For people who actually live in either place though, these are bells and whistles.
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Yes, I'd agree. In addition to your point about Chicago really developing in an age when institution-building was a priority, I'd add that Toronto's more recent development (real as it is) may be hampered by the globalization of culture in our twitter and songza age.

While I wouldn't want to overstate the insularity of previous musical cultures, there clearly was a locality to things like the blues in Chicago or motown in Detroit.

While in recent years Toronto's developed several high profile rappers and musicians like the Weeknd, their celebrity is grounded more in Youtube than in Toronto. Nobody nowadays need see Toronto as a centre of musical creativity since it's all so readily available online. That much of it originates from Toronto is really almost coincidental, unfortunately.

And I'd also agree that most of the things I listed don't help normal people in their normal lives in a given city, which is obvious in so many parts of Chicago.
 
diminutive said:
UChicago >UToronto. MS&I > OSC (by so much). AIC > AGO. Second City Chicago > Second City Toronto. Chicago's museums are better than the ROM. Big Star > Grand Electric. Alinea > Toronto doesn't even have a 3 Star. Magnificent Mile > Bloor Street. Northwestern University's arguably better than Toronto, certainly better than York. So on and so on.

That's not meant to belittle Toronto, or to paper over Chicago's numerous flaws, but I think when some Torontonians get all flustered about people finding Chicago to 'have more cool stuff' we need to remember there's more than a grain of truth to that.
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Yeah, but where is Chicago's Kensington market? Queen St. West? Distillery District? Even a crazy sideshow of an intersection like Yonge and Dundas has nothing comparable in Chicago.
 
Softee said:
Yeah, but where is Chicago's Kensington market? Queen St. West? Distillery District? Even a crazy sideshow of an intersection like Yonge and Dundas has nothing comparable in Chicago.
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My point wasn't that Chicago is some kind of objectively superior city in every respect. It's not! I was trying to point out that people who visit and feel like Chicago 'has more cool stuff' than us think that for a reason.

Clearly Toronto has things Chicago doesn't have and vice versa.

To bite on one example though, Chicago's Queen West is called Wicker Park and it's arguably much nicer than Queen West. At least it has a subway stop for instance :). I'm pretty sure every city nowadays has an area which-used-to-be-trendy-but-is-now-completely-mainstream-and-expensive. It's like the most meta-urban process imaginable.

Also, as for the Distillery District, I would imagine Chicago's Fulton Market is pretty similar for most. It's not a single integrated, pedestrianized complex like the DD, but it's got tons of great old industrial buildings which have been converted to design shops and restaurants. And it has a subway stop! :)

I can't think of any Chicago equivalent to Kensington or Yonge and Dundas, though. I'd actually add the Eaton Center as well. I don't think the Loop has anything quite like that.
 
meh Wicker Park isn't exactly like Queen W I'd argue, I'm not saying its better or worse.

UToronto worse then Chicago ? In what sense, architecture ?? I'll debate you on that, honestly UofT has some of the nicest architecture of any North American university.
Museum wise ... ha there is no comparison (including our new aquarium). Oh but to be fair I don't think they have a ceramic / shoe museum ; - )

Park wise nothing comes close to what Chicago has ... big city feel I think they take the cake here too due to their extremely dense core (commercial wise) and the built form.


I think what sets Toronto apart are its neighborhoods, of course most big cities have this but not to the same extent; Secondly the vibrancy of many core neighborhoods due to the large concentration of residential
 
Softee said:
Yeah, but where is Chicago's Kensington market? Queen St. West? Distillery District? Even a crazy sideshow of an intersection like Yonge and Dundas has nothing comparable in Chicago.
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That's nice, all stuff that shuts down at 1:30am. Chicago you can stay out until 4am in some places. And you don't have to travel to see them. Like I said Toronto probably has better stuff, too bad your average tourist does not go to see them.
 
diminutive said:
My point wasn't that Chicago is some kind of objectively superior city in every respect. It's not! I was trying to point out that people who visit and feel like Chicago 'has more cool stuff' than us think that for a reason.

Clearly Toronto has things Chicago doesn't have and vice versa.

To bite on one example though, Chicago's Queen West is called Wicker Park and it's arguably much nicer than Queen West. At least it has a subway stop for instance :). I'm pretty sure every city nowadays has an area which-used-to-be-trendy-but-is-now-completely-mainstream-and-expensive. It's like the most meta-urban process imaginable.

Also, as for the Distillery District, I would imagine Chicago's Fulton Market is pretty similar for most. It's not a single integrated, pedestrianized complex like the DD, but it's got tons of great old industrial buildings which have been converted to design shops and restaurants. And it has a subway stop! :)

I can't think of any Chicago equivalent to Kensington or Yonge and Dundas, though. I'd actually add the Eaton Center as well. I don't think the Loop has anything quite like that.
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This is because Toronto is still searching for its identity. Yonge Dundas is a Times Square ripoff.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
The Golden horseshoe is the GTA. Kitchener/Guelph is not the Toronto Urban Area.
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No it isn't. The Greater Golden Horseshoe has an area of around 30 000km^2, which is nearly identical to the area of Chicagoland; They have 8 700 000, and 9 200 000 people, respectively. Oh, and before you bring up the commuting/dependency argument, you should look up what "Chicagoland" is. Hint: It isn't a CMA, it's a Combined CMA, meaning more than one CMA (without much in relation, aside from location) being combined to form a larger "urban" area.

denfromoakvillemilton said:
That's nice, all stuff that shuts down at 1:30am. Chicago you can stay out until 4am in some places.
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Most of the loop is dead by 20:00, let alone 1 or 4. Lincoln Park, Lakeview, Boystown, etc. might have some late night activity, but it's not even comparable to Yonge/Dundas.

P.S. It's a little excessive to reply 3 times in a row...
 
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