Toronto Bloor-Yonge Station Capacity Enhancement | ?m | ?s | TTC | AECOM

urbanenthusiast said:
2029... that is hilarious! another 10 years to wait! by the time the changes are made they will be out of date again lol!!

I can't understand why do all the infrastructure projects have to take so long??? In Moscow they build 20-30 new subway stations a year. and in Canada they are expanding 2 stations for 10 years!!! That is ridiculous!!!
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I mean that's actually 8 years, and given how complex this is, it's fairly reasonable to me.

Moscow does not build 30 new stations a year, either. And those stations that do open are under construction for years before opening, they just have multiple projects going on at once. Just like Toronto.
 
urbanenthusiast said:
2029... that is hilarious! another 10 years to wait! by the time the changes are made they will be out of date again lol!!

I can't understand why do all the infrastructure projects have to take so long??? In Moscow they build 20-30 new subway stations a year. and in Canada they are expanding 2 stations for 10 years!!! That is ridiculous!!!
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The comment in respect of Moscow is simply wrong.

The Moscow Circle line, which might give you that impression was a conversion of a pre-existing railway to something more resembling a 'metro'; not the same type of project.

A review of existing lines will not show you 30 stations opening in a single year, or anything close.

That would exceed the entire ~230 station system in only 8 years.

***

As to B-Y, remember than this is not 8 years of construction.

This is project approval, planning, permits etc.

Construction is currently contemplated to begin in earnest in 2024; though redevelopment of HBC may expedite the timeline.

So you're looking at under 5 years..........while keeping the busiest subway station in the country operating. (which severely impairs construction timelines vs working on a station with nobody in it!)
 
urbanenthusiast said:
2029... that is hilarious! another 10 years to wait! by the time the changes are made they will be out of date again lol!!

I can't understand why do all the infrastructure projects have to take so long??? In Moscow they build 20-30 new subway stations a year. and in Canada they are expanding 2 stations for 10 years!!! That is ridiculous!!!
Click to expand...
Northern Light said:
The comment in respect of Moscow is simply wrong.

The Moscow Circle line, which might give you that impression was a conversion of a pre-existing railway to something more resembling a 'metro'; not the same type of project.

A review of existing lines will not show you 30 stations opening in a single year, or anything close.

That would exceed the entire ~230 station system in only 8 years.

***

As to B-Y, remember than this is not 8 years of construction.

This is project approval, planning, permits etc.

Construction is currently contemplated to begin in earnest in 2024; though redevelopment of HBC may expedite the timeline.

So you're looking at under 5 years..........while keeping the busiest subway station in the country operating. (which severely impairs construction timelines vs working on a station with nobody in it!)
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I believe the actual number is ~11 stations and 17km of tracks per year, but his primary point being how quickly stuff gets built. At the same time though he's still missing the point that just because this much is opened every year doesn't mean it takes a year to build them. Most projects such as the big circle line have phased openings where certain sections are opened each year and they have multiple projects being started planned. Not every project is on a great timeline either. Any plan to connect the two ends of Line 8 (current labelled as Line 8 and 8A) has basically been pushed back indefinitely from its initial planned date of like 2025, to 2030, and now it's not even on the timeline due to complications.
 
urbanenthusiast said:
2029... that is hilarious! another 10 years to wait! by the time the changes are made they will be out of date again lol!!

I can't understand why do all the infrastructure projects have to take so long??? In Moscow they build 20-30 new subway stations a year. and in Canada they are expanding 2 stations for 10 years!!! That is ridiculous!!!
Click to expand...

I would also assume that in a perpetually semi-failed state like Russia that safety standards and due diligence are considerably lower than here. It's often easy to forget here in our bubble that life is cheap in the vast majority of the world.
 
Towered said:
I would also assume that in a perpetually semi-failed state like Russia that safety standards and due diligence are considerably lower than here. It's often easy to forget here in our bubble that life is cheap in the vast majority of the world.
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Not just that - but it's the capital of an authoritarian regime; things happens by fiat. Also, actual construction time for our projects (where it isn't artificially dragged out due to funding reasons) isn't that terrible - it's the political decision-making process that took the longest time (umpteen funding announcements before actual construction start gives the impression that the project took forever to build).

AoD
 
urbanenthusiast said:
2029... that is hilarious! another 10 years to wait! by the time the changes are made they will be out of date again lol!!

I can't understand why do all the infrastructure projects have to take so long??? In Moscow they build 20-30 new subway stations a year. and in Canada they are expanding 2 stations for 10 years!!! That is ridiculous!!!
Click to expand...

The problem is that there are not enough companies who can do this job as subways don't get build often. To maximize their revenue stream, they inflate the time it takes to build subways and since our City Hall lacks the engineering and scientific knowledge to thoroughly evaluate these bids, that's what we are stuck with. Europe and Asia doesn't have this problem. There are many companies in Europe which build subways and they also have a very robust apprenticeship program where new generation of Subway builders can learn on the job. Not only that, their members of parliament are quite knowledgeable in terms of subway construction and other large infrastructure projects so any incompetent bid gets flagged right away.

Here, you have to re-train the staff, deal with companies who are looking for constant revenue stream because these projects happen so few and far between, which leads to delays and which adds to the cost. Since these projects don't get finished in the tenure of the politicians who are proposing them, they never happen on a grand scale like London's Cross Rail or Jubilee Line, or the revitalization of St.Pancras, King's Cross, London Bridge, etc.

Like take a a look at Union Station Revitalization. It's taken more than twice the time to do so. In England, the same renovation would have taken 2 years.
 
Richard White said:
The fact that they have no established presence in Canada. You need a workforce, machines etc.
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But more than that, you need consistent calls for construction for those companies to stay active. For example, the French have many LRT/tram engineers (+ Alstom as decent vehicle supplier) because 24 modern LRT systems have opened and expanded consistently since 1985.
 
Mercenary said:
like take a a look at Union Station Revitalization. Its taken more than twice the time to do so. In England, the same renovation would have taken 2 years.
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Two years in the UK? For that much excavation? They started the new underground platforms at Paddington in 2012, and they still aren't open.

This is a $1-billion project. They aren't done faster in London. How many years was King Cross/St. Pancras modernization going on for ... seemed like forever?

And what about Euston? The last time they rebuilt it, they started in 1962, and it didn't open until 1968. And now for the current work at Euston they started in Spring 2019, and they don't even plan to fully open until 2033.

More comparable to Bloor-Yonge are the upgrades at Bank tube station. Construction started in 2015 (after many years of planning). They've opened a new entrance already, but they aren't planning to finish until at least 2022, and that seems optimistic.
 
Deadpool X said:
Also, try comparing the speed at which they build highways in UK. Even small stretches of widening in countryside can take a decade in UK.
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Honestly Ontario isn't much better. From start of the EA process to opening day is usually 15 years on the short end for new highways ( a bit quicker for widenings). This is likely going to get quicker with recent legislative amendments made by the PCs which should cut a few years off the process, but still. It's really long.

Some Ontario highway projects move quickly, some crawl along. The 400 widening and 404 widening are taking 5 construction seasons for example, and each project had only a single structure on it (usually the part that takes the longest). But the 427 extension is due to open in only 3 construction seasons and that's a full fledged new freeway.
 
innsertnamehere said:
Honestly Ontario isn't much better. From start of the EA process to opening day is usually 15 years on the short end for new highways ( a bit quicker for widenings).
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I've never seen them take 2 years to repave shoulders and laybys in Canada.

When did the EA process start for the Newport M4-bypass start? (spoilers ... it wasn't this century). And good grief, what about the A303 widening in Wiltshire?
 
innsertnamehere said:
Honestly Ontario isn't much better. From start of the EA process to opening day is usually 15 years on the short end for new highways ( a bit quicker for widenings). This is likely going to get quicker with recent legislative amendments made by the PCs which should cut a few years off the process, but still. It's really long.

Some Ontario highway projects move quickly, some crawl along. The 400 widening and 404 widening are taking 5 construction seasons for example, and each project had only a single structure on it (usually the part that takes the longest). But the 427 extension is due to open in only 3 construction seasons and that's a full fledged new freeway.
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I am talking about widening, not brand new highway. Even those can take more than a decade in UK. Compare that with 401 widening in Mississauga and MIlton. That's like widening and building new highway at the same time.
 
Deadpool X said:
I am talking about widening, not brand new highway. Even those can take more than a decade in UK. Compare that with 401 widening in Mississauga and MIlton. That's like widening and building new highway at the same time.
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I'm confused at what the moral of the story is here.
 
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