Toronto - Bills series not a hit

[MisterF]

4) They blocked off the first 10 or so rows for what reason? Oh yes, advertising. Terribly pathetic

Actually the Argos do the same thing. It's because the sightlines from there suck. If you really were a HUGE football fan you'd probably know that But you're right that SkyDome is a terrible football stadium.

As for a Toronto NFL team, I don't see it happening anytime soon if ever. The NFL benefits from a strong CFL because a strong CFL means a lot of football fans in Canada who also pay attention to the NFL. That's why they lent the CFL money in the 90s and why they started NFL Europe - the more football fans and leagues around the world, the more money the NFL makes. While the CFL is doing really well right now, it wasn't long ago that it was almost bankrupt and it's not that farfetched that NFL expansion would sink the whole ship. If that happened there'd be a lot fewer football fans and the NFL would make a lot less money here. The CFL is essentially giving the NFL millions of fans for free.

If the NFL wants to expand to other countries the first on the list would be Mexico. Unlike Canada they don't have a domestic gridiron league so putting a team there would actually create new fans. Plus it's huge in Mexico City - they get crowds of over 100,000 for games there.

 

[jn_12]

10 years ago the CFL was about to die. 20 years ago the CFL was doing well like today. The severe turn over rate turns me off. Also the fact 2/3 of the league makes the playoffs in a 8 team league. Expansion has also taken way too long.

But this is about the bills.

As for the article, do you think we need new stadiums for the Jays and 80,000 seat general stadium now?

What is there today that there wasn't 10 years ago? A little company called TSN that dominates and has backed the CFL with intensive daily coverage. TSN did the same thing with the World Juniors. Hell, the year the tournament was played in Boston, I played in front of more people at a tournament in the same arena only a week previous. TSN has brought both to a whole new level and they've single-handedly elevated the World Juniors to the point where Americans (in hockey regions) follow it. They're a very powerful entity and if they want something to be popular, they have the ability to do it. They didn't have that ability in the 90s.

And no I don't think the Jays need a new stadium. The Dome is only 20 years old. And we have no need for an 80,000 seat general stadium right now unless we won an Olympic bid or a billionaire decided to buy an NFL team.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What is there today that there wasn't 10 years ago? A little company called TSN that dominates and has backed the CFL with intensive daily coverage. TSN did the same thing with the World Juniors. Hell, the year the tournament was played in Boston, I played in front of more people at a tournament in the same arena only a week previous. TSN has brought both to a whole new level and they've single-handedly elevated the World Juniors to the point where Americans (in hockey regions) follow it. They're a very powerful entity and if they want something to be popular, they have the ability to do it. They didn't have that ability in the 90s.

And no I don't think the Jays need a new stadium. The Dome is only 20 years old. And we have no need for an 80,000 seat general stadium right now unless we won an Olympic bid or a billionaire decided to buy an NFL team.

To the CFL's credit they did fine in 70's and (early) 80's. It was US expansion and the Ottawa crap that did them in.

 

[JayBee]

Actually the Argos do the same thing. It's because the sightlines from there suck. If you really were a HUGE football fan you'd probably know that But you're right that SkyDome is a terrible football stadium.

Don't be silly. But that further solidifies my point that the Skydome is a crappy place to watch a football game.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It's simply about quality and price.
I'm a Bill's fan and after a couple of bad experiences with Buffalo weather, I don't take the chance of going down there for a game anymore. That said, it would be a different matter if the team had made the playoffs in the last decade.

Pre-season football is pointless and was always going to be a loss-leader for Rogers in this deal. The regular season games a year apart, so it's hard to get any momentum going. It's a bit of a moot point since, again, the team hasn't made the playoffs in the last decade.

So, they caught a team kind of going into a downslide, didn't get marquee teams for them to play against, and then made the worst mistake possible: charged not just expensive but RIDDICULOUS sums for tickets.

Despite being a fan, I've only been to one game and it was lucky that a friend with a connect got me into a box for what turned to be a horrible game. I'd have gone last year for free and I probably would have paid $50 or more for reasonable tickets but I feel like even the 500-level seats were up around $100 - as others have noted, the TOP price at Wilson Stadium is about 1/2 of that. I could have had freebies for this last game and I would have gone if Peyton Manning was going to play beyond the first quarter, or if the game meant something at all for anybody other than the 3-rd strings hoping to make the team.

So, it's a perfect storm of suckiness and Rogers' greed put it over the top and, as that ESPN blog shows, has done damage to Toronto's optics as a viable NFL city (which it probably is).

 

[GenerationW]

Too bad that article is wrong and that there was more like 40,000 there. By the end of the game there was 20,000, but it was all downhill once the starters were taken off.

The article is correct. There is no chance in hell 40K were there, and one guy I know who went even thought there were fewer than 20,000. But the bigger issue is that Bob McCown said only 12,000 tickets were actually sold. That's the real bottom line.

Larry Tanebaum will be the face of ownership.

Can you feel the excitement? Anyone?? Bueller???

I bet he's absolutely terrified to front an NFL team after this fiasco, and just imagine the impact a second Toronto NHL team would have on the spending habits of Toronto sports fans.

As for a Toronto NFL team, I don't see it happening anytime soon if ever. The NFL benefits from a strong CFL because a strong CFL means a lot of football fans in Canada who also pay attention to the NFL. That's why they lent the CFL money in the 90s and why they started NFL Europe - the more football fans and leagues around the world, the more money the NFL makes. While the CFL is doing really well right now, it wasn't long ago that it was almost bankrupt and it's not that farfetched that NFL expansion would sink the whole ship. If that happened there'd be a lot fewer football fans and the NFL would make a lot less money here. The CFL is essentially giving the NFL millions of fans for free.

One reason the NFL wants the CFL healthy is that in any potential anti-trust situation, the NFL can argue that the NFL is not a monopoly since the CFL is a competing league that has been around for decades.

To the CFL's credit they did fine in 70's and (early) 80's. It was US expansion and the Ottawa crap that did them in.

It really all started when Jake Gaudaur stepped down as commissioner, and there wasn't a strong leader around after the league's last good TV contract ran out in 1986. The next decade was filled with crisis after crisis. U.S. expansion didn't work in terms of football, but it actually provided the CFL with some much needed money, though it took loans from the NFL in the late 90's to finally stabilize the CFL.

10 years ago the CFL was about to die. 20 years ago the CFL was doing well like today. The severe turn over rate turns me off. Also the fact 2/3 of the league makes the playoffs in a 8 team league. Expansion has also taken way too long.

But this is about the bills.

As for the article, do you think we need new stadiums for the Jays and 80,000 seat general stadium now?

More like 30 years ago the CFL was doing well. Ironically, the Argos had mostly mediocre teams from 72-81 but were probably the league's most profitable team.

What severe turnover rate? Players? It's hardly much different in the NFL. The average pro football career is somewhere around four years, so there's always a bunch of new players on any team.

I'm okay with so many teams making the playoffs. Reminds of the NHL in the 80s when 16 of 21 made the playoffs (which is more than 2/3). That was the last golden era of the NHL, before it turned into the corporate blob it is today.

The Leafs managed to finance the ACC, so when the Jays want a new stadium (and they will one day), they're on their own. If Rogers (a much bigger entity than MLSE) cries poor and tries to suck up to or blackmail the government, the answer had better be an emphatic no! They deserve nothing.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The article is correct. There is no chance in hell 40K were there, and one guy I know who went even thought there were fewer than 20,000. But the bigger issue is that Bob McCown said only 12,000 tickets were actually sold. That's the real bottom line.

Can you feel the excitement? Anyone?? Bueller???

I bet he's absolutely terrified to front an NFL team after this fiasco, and just imagine the impact a second Toronto NHL team would have on the spending habits of Toronto sports fans.

One reason the NFL wants the CFL healthy is that in any potential anti-trust situation, the NFL can argue that the NFL is not a monopoly since the CFL is a competing league that has been around for decades.

It really all started when Jake Gaudaur stepped down as commissioner, and there wasn't a strong leader around after the league's last good TV contract ran out in 1986. The next decade was filled with crisis after crisis. U.S. expansion didn't work in terms of football, but it actually provided the CFL with some much needed money, though it took loans from the NFL in the late 90's to finally stabilize the CFL.

More like 30 years ago the CFL was doing well. Ironically, the Argos had mostly mediocre teams from 72-81 but were probably the league's most profitable team.

What severe turnover rate? Players? It's hardly much different in the NFL. The average pro football career is somewhere around four years, so there's always a bunch of new players on any team.

I'm okay with so many teams making the playoffs. Reminds of the NHL in the 80s when 16 of 21 made the playoffs (which is more than 2/3). That was the last golden era of the NHL, before it turned into the corporate blob it is today.

The Leafs managed to finance the ACC, so when the Jays want a new stadium (and they will one day), they're on their own. If Rogers (a much bigger entity than MLSE) cries poor and tries to suck up to or blackmail the government, the answer had better be an emphatic no! They deserve nothing.

Teams.

 

[jn_12]

The article is correct. There is no chance in hell 40K were there, and one guy I know who went even thought there were fewer than 20,000. But the bigger issue is that Bob McCown said only 12,000 tickets were actually sold. That's the real bottom line.

No offense, but I was at the game. If your friend thinks only 20,000 people were there then he clearly has never been there for a game where there were actually 20,000 people in the crowd. I've been in that stadium when there have been crowds ranging from 10,000 to sold out and there was easily 35,000-40,000.

But I agree that it's doubtful that any more than a quarter of the tickets were actually bought. We got ours for free and they were worth $225/each.

 

[GenerationW]

No offense, but I was at the game. If your friend thinks only 20,000 people were there then he clearly has never been there for a game where there were actually 20,000 people in the crowd. I've been in that stadium when there have been crowds ranging from 10,000 to sold out and there was easily 35,000-40,000.

Yes he has, and no one reported anything close to 40K actually being there. Add to that what I saw based on the crowd shots and I'll go with the overwhelming majority on this one.

 

[jn_12]

Why the fuck are you arguing over this? It's not like I'm pro-Bills or Rogers or something. I was at the game and saw for my own eyes, and why the hell would I lie about it? The 100 level was the only section half filled (which explains why you didn't see many people). The 500 level was filled completely with very few visible empty seats. Also the announced attendance was 39583. That was reported by multiple newspapers. Griffin's article only says that at the opening kickoff there was 20,000 people there (in fact he says "But as the ball spun end-over-end towards the Colts goal-line, the stadium was still less than half full, about 20,000 warm bodies in the stands, this despite an announced attendance of 39,583."). Which is true but some American website with poor reading comprehension skills failed to realize that he wasn't talking about only 20,000 people there for the whole game. There were tons of people still outside the stadium when the game was about to start (we had VIP tickets so despite arriving minutes before kickoff we were able to jump the queue and get in just in time for kickoff). The place filled up after that. At the beginning of the 4th the place started to empty and by the end there was around 20,000 in the crowd. I'd say 35,000 is a legitimate estimate and you have to also remember that people are already aggressively negative about this Bills thing. They're far more likely to round-down or underestimate because of how this whole series has gone.

 

[GenerationW]

Try to relax.

 

[ladyscraper]

I love how some people think that the reason the games haven't done well is because there is no market for NFL football in Toronto. The only reason it flopped is because of the absolutely ridiculous prices. If it was the price of a Bills game in Buffalo, it would have sold out really fast.
I hate football more than anything in the world but I'm not blind to the fact that the sport is extremely popular here.

 

[jn_12]

Try to relax.

Or maybe you should stop being a smug ass in every thread on here despite being wrong. Ya maybe.
Now that I have access to my girlfriend's camera, here's some pictures from the game. You'll note all the people in crowd.
So first this is what a crowd typically looks like when there's 20,000 people there:

Now here was the crowd looked like for the Bills game:

So perhaps you'll want to look into getting some friends whose words you can trust and don't mislead you just for the sake of being overtly negative about an event that has clearly struggled.

 

[gei]

It was definitely WELL over 20,000. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have a clue.

2 bad teams... exhibition game.... crazy high prices. It's actually a testament to the POPULARITY of the nfl in Toronto that the game drew as many people as it did.

 

[GenerationW]

I still say no chance in hell it was anything close to 40K.