Toronto Bathurst College Centre | ?m | 4s | RioCan | Turner Fleischer

So are you saying if this was just a three storey mall,... and no Walmart,... there wouldn't be any opposition to this development application?
 
He is saying if it were a 10 floor condo there would've be significantly less opposition. It isn't the size of the building, it is its contents that have people in outrage. (Specifically large box stores)
 
It's funny how apparently the market is so great and beloved, but that it's also so shitty that it can't withstand any competition on the fringe of it's borders.
 
Because god knows Walmart sells organic coffee, used clothing, odd/rare spices, wonderful ethnic food, fresh fish and meat etc. etc...

Like I said before, if this was a shoppers and a fresh & wild no one would have cared. But it's big bad Walmart so it's evil incarnate. Even though a grocery store like fresh & wild or the new Loblaws urban, whole foods fighting concept would have ACTUALLY competed against Kenstington.
 
innsertnamehere said:
He is saying if it were a 10 floor condo there would've be significantly less opposition. It isn't the size of the building, it is its contents that have people in outrage. (Specifically large box stores)
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The outtrage is simple NIMBY'ism using Wal-Mart as a red herring.

e.g.: https://blog.projexity.com/makeafuss/ Because one 65 ft high Walmart moving into a downtown neighbourhood directly behind a row of two-story houses and a 3 minute walk to an enclave of independently-owned small businesses will open a massive door to run amok in other communities across Toronto.

If you listen to some of the comments on video from the public meeting people were crying about how this giant development was going to tower over their victorian semi's.

Adam Vaughan similarly talks about traffic as his primary concern.

As with any NIMBY'ist endeavour the anti-development group has targeted the most obviously emotional aspect - WalMart hoping to leverage anti-Wal-Mart sentiment for their own purposes.
 
I have no problem with leveraging anti Wal-Mart sentiments in this instance. Not everything has to be governed by the all-fair godly hand of supply and demand. The whole city can become mindlessly monotone for all I care, but this particular stretch of downtown does not have to. Kensington market has a great deal of cultural value, and this goes well beyond any commercial value Wal-Mart may bring. I doubt anyone would be able to provide an instance in which Wal-Mart has encouraged more of what makes Kensington market special, or anything that would make Toronto better off overall. It's just not a good fit.
 
M.R.Victor said:
The whole city can become mindlessly monotone for all I care, but this particular stretch of downtown does not have to. Kensington market has a great deal of cultural value, and this goes well beyond any commercial value Wal-Mart may bring.
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Good thing this isn't in Kensington then.
 
Walmart is a great fit for this site,.... the local demographic contains many Walmart shoppers that usually goes out of the area to the DufferinMall Walmart. These people of limited means are the ones that would benefit the most,... those that live in the subsidized housing, recent immigrants, the working poor, younger folks just starting out in life, etc,...

Hey, let our free market system decide,... if Walmart and Rio-Can market studies are all wrong,... then once this Walmart Urban 90 format opens at this site,... it will be a bust and nobody will ever shop at this Walmart store,... so Walmart will loose big money and eventually be forced to shut down and leave on their own.

But what if this new Walmart Urban 90 store is successful,.... it will bring more shoppers into the area,... and raising tides lift all boats,.... more shoppers into the area,... means more people going to Kensington Market as well! More shoppers in Kensington Market to buy the stuff they can not find in Walmart or to grab a bite and chill,...

But lets say if Walmart were to buy the HonestEd site at the south-west corner of Bathurst&Bloor,.... and establish a new Walmart Urban 90 store there,.... then the shoppers would be packing that Bathurst&Bloor neighbourhood again,... better location right on the subway line,.... and since that Bathurst&Bloor location is too far from KensingtonMarket, KensingtonMarket won't see the raising tide lift all boat effect,... thus KensingtonMartket won't see any extra shoppers in their area.
 
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Mithras said:
Because god knows Walmart sells organic coffee, used clothing, odd/rare spices, wonderful ethnic food, fresh fish and meat etc. etc...

Like I said before, if this was a shoppers and a fresh & wild no one would have cared. But it's big bad Walmart so it's evil incarnate. Even though a grocery store like fresh & wild or the new Loblaws urban, whole foods fighting concept would have ACTUALLY competed against Kenstington.
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There is already a ShoppersDrugMart just south-east of this site inside Toronto Western Hospital and another ShoppersDrugMart near the south-west corner of Bathurst & College. And there might soon be a new Loblaw urban at 297 College St (just west of Spadina) to add to the existing Loblaw at QueenStreetWest & Portland Rio-Can site and there's a ShoppersDrugMart across the street from there too.
 
picard102 said:
Good thing this isn't in Kensington then.
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Well, although it isn't in Kensington technically, it's broader impact will reach well beyond the borders of the market.

The "won't somebody please think of those poor poor people" arguments in favor of Walmart are pretty disingenuous.

Kensington market is a small bohemian fragment in a fairly mundane city. It has historical, cultural and touristic value that trumps it's retail value. I don't think that our society would lose too much in protecting this one particular place. It's about good governance above and beyond market forces (oh yes, that funny concept that our society increasingly seems to forget, good governance). Wal-Mart can go somewhere else.
 
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But I never made that argument. Of course cities change and neighborhoods adapt. The character of Kensington market will certainly change due to this new entrant, which would will likely cause the market to become more upscale and more specialized, as the Wal-Mart intercepts many of it's would-be customers. Perhaps the grocers would close in favor of those dreaded specialty olive shops or high-end clothing stores. It's not the poor poor shopkeepers of Kensington Market that I'm worried about, it's that a Toronto in which Kensington becomes an upscale mall-ified version of itself is a worse Toronto than that of today.
 
M.R.Victor said:
Well, although it isn't in Kensington technically, it's broader impact will reach well beyond the borders of the market.

The "won't somebody please think of those poor poor people" arguments in favor of Walmart are pretty disingenuous.

Kensington market is a small bohemian fragment in a fairly mundane city. It has historical, cultural and touristic value that trumps it's retail value. I don't think that our society would lose too much in protecting this one particular place. It's about good governance above and beyond market forces (oh yes, that funny concept that our society increasingly seems to forget, good governance). Wal-Mart can go somewhere else.
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Well I guess I must be pretty disingenuous,.... Well at least I was called pretty! ;p

Your same argument could have been made about the retail strip at Yonge and Queen,... And Yonge and College,.... A Hundred years ago,... When Simpson and Eaton were setting up one stop shopping department stores there,....

Look at that former Simpson department store between Yonge and Bay, Queen west and Richmond,.... About 7 storeys,... It make today's big box store look like a mom and pop store,..... The Eaton College Park eventually got converted to a mall and offices,.... But both Simpson and Eaton made that part of Yonge street much more vibrant back then,.... And even today,.... If Simpson and Eaton did not set up shop back then,.... Would our Yonge street retail be as strong today? Would our downtown core be as vibrant today,... Or just an urban decaying shell like many American cities?
 
M.R.Victor said:
But I never made that argument. Of course cities change and neighborhoods adapt. The character of Kensington market will certainly change due to this new entrant, which would will likely cause the market to become more upscale and more specialized, as the Wal-Mart intercepts many of it's would-be customers. Perhaps the grocers would close in favor of those dreaded specialty olive shops or high-end clothing stores. It's not the poor poor shopkeepers of Kensington Market that I'm worried about, it's that a Toronto in which Kensington becomes an upscale mall-ified version of itself is a worse Toronto than that of today.
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Kensington market already went upscale long ago,.... Look at all the organic and specialty shops,.... If you want cheap grocery, go to Chinatown.
 
sunnyraytoronto said:
Kensington market already went upscale long ago,.... Look at all the organic and specialty shops,.... If you want cheap grocery, go to Chinatown.
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+1

I go there for mexican food, little restaurants and bars, hard to find spices and coffee and duck eggs. That won't change with Walmart and the used clothing stores, butchers, fish mongers, hip furniture stores etc. won't either.

That stretch of Bathurst was a wasteland and a waste. An urban Walmart will be less destructive to Kensington than a grocery store and be a boon for the numerous under privileged living in the area. It's on the streetcar line and will be a net draw to the community.
 
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