Toronto Aga Khan Museum + Ismaili Centre | ?m | ?s | Aga Khan Dev. | Maki and Associates

[Tewder]

I will bite - pseudo-intellectual in what way?

Intellectual pursuits are always going to be distorted when filtered through a prism of religious belief, i.e. creationism etc. Hey, this is a well established debate, not one invented by me. Regardless, a religious institution is free to make all the claims it wants about pursuing enlightenment etc. but as individuals we are also free to question the motives, and in fact should.

Complaining about this project along such lines is like complaining about having a church built next door. Would one be having comments as such regarding say, the artistic and cultural worth of say our Judeo-Christian heritage?

Absolutely, or at least it should be perfectly reasonable to.

We don't need a temple to Humanism - the state is secular, and there are sufficient cultural apparatus operating along such lines. There is truly no need to reinterpret the concept as a matter of faith - in fact, it's a bit obscene to reinterpret it in such a quasi-religious manner.

AoD

The fact that we force taxpayers to fund catholic schools leads me to suspect our society is perhaps a little more insidiously religion-based than we might like to acknowledge...

Regardless, Looking at history overall I'd say we absolutely need temples to humanism. In a global socio-historic context humanism is a very fragile, minority ethos... of course people of religion are free to disagree. However, as a proud and out-of-the closet atheist I do feel my minority status should be protected from the masses.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Intellectual pursuits are always going to be distorted when filtered through a prism of religious belief, i.e. creationism etc. Hey, this is a well established debate, not one invented by me. Regardless, a religious institution is free to make all the claims it wants about pursuing enlightenment etc. but as individuals we are also free to question the motives, and in fact should.

Intellectual pursuits are always distorted, period - if not by religious lens, merely by the lens of being through one's lived experience. Let's not pretend that religion (tacit or otherwise) have a special claim on distortions. I for one have no issues with acknowledging the beauty and worth of the material - and dare I say, even philosophical and ethical/moral heritage from religious sources. One need not discount the reality of history in the pursuit of truth and beauty.

Absolutely, or at least it should be perfectly reasonable to.
The fact that we force taxpayers to fund catholic schools leads me to suspect our society is perhaps a little more insidiously religion-based than we might like to acknowledge...

The funding of Catholic schools is a high cost, but ultimately shallow example of the intersection between faith and public policy - one would do well to think about how religion has influenced our entire system of government and the values behind our laws. I think we'd find it hard to deny that reality - and there is nothing inherently wrong with deriving said values from some source. The validity of those values will have to be judged of course by the reality of our times.

Regardless, Looking at history overall I'd say we absolutely need temples to humanism. In a global socio-historic context humanism is a very fragile, minority ethos... of course people of religion are free to disagree. However, as a proud and out-of-the closet atheist I do feel my minority status should be protected from the masses.

By worshipping humanism you risk turning it into something that it isn't - and worse, the very thing it is antithesis of. Leave the worshipping to religions where it belongs.

AoD

 

[Tewder]

Intellectual pursuits are always distorted, period - if not by religious lens, merely by the lens of being through one's lived experience. Let's not pretend that religion (tacit or otherwise) have a special claim on distortions. I for one have no issues with acknowledging the beauty and worth of the material - and dare I say, even philosophical and ethical/moral heritage from religious sources. One need not discount the reality of history in the pursuit of truth and beauty.

Religious faith itself is counter-intellectual, however, and completely against the grain of the scientific process (at best), actively a dangerous obstacle to it (at worst). It is a closed system wherein questions are verboten and wherein answers are sacrilege, which is not fertile ground for the 'truth' in any real sense (from my perspective at least as a biased humanist).

By worshipping humanism you risk turning it into something that it isn't - and worse, the very thing it is antithesis of. Leave the worshipping to religions where it belongs.

AoD

Good point, I didn't think of it that way. Still, i do believe we need to offer a loud and strong affirmative societal case for secularism in the face of rising religious fundamentalism and neo-conservatism, and that we shouldn't be timid or apologetic about asserting these values.

 

[walli]

Despite the pretty buildings and pseudo-intellectual trappings this is just another religious shrine

Intellectual pursuits are always going to be distorted when filtered through a prism of religious belief

Religious faith itself is counter-intellectual, however, and completely against the grain of the scientific process

Your comments are rather uneducated (at best). The museum's focus is on "Arts of Muslim Civilisations" and not on "Islamic Art". That means a decorated robe from China or an astrolabe from the Iberian Peninsula, or the oldest known complete volume manuscript of the Cannon of Medicine. If there is not even this absolutely basic terms of reference, I can really now understand why the Aga Khan felt this Institution was so needed.

That's about as much attention I'm going to give to your trolling. Either get on topic here or find a more appropriate forum for your ramblings. I do encourage you to visit the museum, however.

 

[Tewder]

Your comments are rather uneducated (at best). The museum's focus is on "Arts of Muslim Civilisations" and not on "Islamic Art". That means a decorated robe from China or an astrolabe from the Iberian Peninsula, or the oldest known complete volume manuscript of the Cannon of Medicine. If there is not even this absolutely basic terms of reference, I can really now understand why the Aga Khan felt this Institution was so needed.

That's about as much attention I'm going to give to your trolling. Either get on topic here or find a more appropriate forum for your ramblings. I do encourage you to visit the museum, however.

Ah yes, you don't agree with 'questioning' or dissenting opinion so you want to shut down the discussion. Why am I not surprised? But thank you, you've pretty much just underlined every comment I've made... and your reducing the purview of this centre to that of an 'art museum' is disingenuous at best and belies your ignorance, it's mandate is far wider than that.

For the record, however, I was not trolling. I was commenting on a previous poster's observation about the centre, and doing so respectfully though with a differing opinion. It's how we do things around here.

As for visiting the centre? Perhaps, though i'll probably go support similar collections in the ROM instead where the wider purview is more in line with my ethos.

 

[Grimace]

Ah yes, you don't agree with 'questioning' or dissenting opinion so you want to shut down the discussion. Why am I not surprised? But thank you, you've pretty much just underlined every comment I've made... and your reducing the purview of this centre to that of an 'art museum' is disingenuous at best and belies your ignorance, it's mandate is far wider than that.

For the record, however, I was not trolling. I was commenting on a previous poster's observation about the centre, and doing so respectfully though with a differing opinion. It's how we do things around here.

As for visiting the centre? Perhaps, though i'll probably go support similar collections in the ROM instead where the wider purview is more in line with my ethos.

It is this sort of fundamentalist atheism that gives atheism a bad name. If you think that intolerant atheism will be more successful at combating religious extremism than religious organizations that promote a moderate and tolerant worldview, such as Aga Khan, I think you are sorely mistaken. I say this as an atheist.

And I can't wait to take my kids to this museum.

 

[Ayan]

As for visiting the centre? Perhaps, though i'll probably go support similar collections in the ROM instead where the wider purview is more in line with my ethos.

I detest organized religion but an atheist can admire the beautiful architecture of a church or mosque or other forms of art, no? I suggest you pay a visit before making up your mind.

 

[Tewder]

It is this sort of fundamentalist atheism that gives atheism a bad name. If you think that intolerant atheism will be more successful at combating religious extremism than religious organizations that promote a moderate and tolerant worldview, such as Aga Khan, I think you are sorely mistaken. I say this as an atheist.

And I can't wait to take my kids to this museum.

Atheism has a 'bad name'? According to whom?

I'm not sure where I was intolerant. Please explain where i made a comment that wasn't objective or respectful. If I did I would apologize because that wasn't my intention. This discussion has been about ethos. I fully respect the rights of people to their religious belief systems, I merely opined that I wasn't 'unhappy' if hypothetically more people in our Multicultural city were drifting towards more secular ideas... if I reacted strongly to Walli it is because I did feel his/her attack against my belief system was a personal one. I'm surprised a moderator didn't feel it was.

I detest organized religion but an atheist can admire the beautiful architecture of a church or mosque or other forms of art, no? I suggest you pay a visit before making up your mind.

In a purely intellectual sense, absolutely, which is why I am more comfortable 'appreciating' these treasures from more of an anthropological point of view, within the context of a museum (without religious affiliation) for example.

 

[interchange42]

Let's keep the discussion to the buildings and landscape on the site please. If anyone wants to start a thread in General Discussions part of the forum on the ideological/religious underpinning here, go ahead.

42

 

[someMidTowner]

 

[walli]

Looks like the museum made the cut for the BBC's eight great new museums:
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20141017-the-eight-greatest-new-museums

I've been impressed with how much positive attention has been generated outside of the country by the AKM!

 

[DtTO]

^ Very impressive! I didn't realize the Museum is 10 000m^2? It looks much smaller on the outside. I'll likely be visiting in a week or two and will try to get some more photos in this thread.

 

[someMidTowner]

 

[walli]

^ Very impressive! I didn't realize the Museum is 10 000m^2? It looks much smaller on the outside. I'll likely be visiting in a week or two and will try to get some more photos in this thread.

The building plays tricks on the eye given Maki's minimalist style - hard to see scale till there in person. According to the architecture firm's web-site, it is actually 11,600m^2:
http://www.maki-and-associates.co.jp/details/index.html?pcd=119

Also - great set of new Fall pictures by Salim Nenshi. Highly recommended:
http://salimnensi.pixieset.com/autumn-agakhan-park/

 

[argus]

Religious faith itself is counter-intellectual, however, and completely against the grain of the scientific process (at best), actively a dangerous obstacle to it (at worst). It is a closed system wherein questions are verboten and wherein answers are sacrilege, which is not fertile ground for the 'truth' in any real sense (from my perspective at least as a biased humanist).

Even a brief survey of the history of science would show a long and sometimes fruitful relationship between the the two fields in the past. It hasn't all been conflict. As for religion being "against the grain of the scientific process," it's worth noting that the very concept of "reality" is ultimately a metaphysical concept, and as such, beyond the reach of science.