Toronto 4800 Yonge Street | 168.24m | 49s | Menkes | Arquitectonica

[Automation Gallery]

Hmm?..168.4 meters tall will be North Yorks tallest,
unbelievable, looking at the 100m list there are 107 buildings ( planned, under construction, built) in the GTA that will be taller than that

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

This isn't going to be a popular opinion but I would prefer the new entrance over maintaining the artwork. I agree it's better than most found in TTC stations but I think the community is better served by more access to the subway.

Who would use the new Subway Entrance and how would they get there? BTW, that's a hint as to why Section37 Community Benefit shouldn't fund the new subway entrance.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^I think he's speaking for the rest of the buildings that have been sprouting out there. Asides from Gehry (upcoming), 19 Duncan (upcoming), Picasso, and QRC West, the rest of the product going up there has been garbage for the most part.

The one thing I will say is that I wish what's being done in NYCC could have been replicated elsewhere in the city (ie: Etobicoke City Centre). Having a building like this pop up in that area would be a dream.

I'd say the ratio of good to bad in the Entertianment district is about 1,000x better than NYCC. 99.5% of NYCC is drab basic design.

 

[taal]

Since previous provincial Liberal government tax foreign real estate investors, Office-Condo isn't selling anymore. Gupta/Easton Groups' 4050 Yonge (half office-condo & half hotel) isn't selling.

After Tridel Hullmark Centre office-condo scam (partitioning all office space into office-condo, mostly sold to oversea investor with no interest in opening office here or even renting out the office space; thus 2/3 still remain empty 4 years later,.... and thus employment area never fully materialize!),... now North York City Planning is very adamant on traditional office space. During the initial Settlement Offer, Menkes promised all office space will be leased out by them - Menkes will remain property owner of all the Office spaces.

I'm also thinking Menkes will likely move their head office here from nearby 4711 Yonge (Procter & Gamble Building built in mid 1980s) that's also owned & managed by Menkes.

4711 Yonge Street | Menkes Developments

www.menkes.com

That's great to hear ! Thanks for that. Still with that said the amount of office space here is close to negligible given how prominent the site is.

 

[Amare]

I'd say the ratio of good to bad in the Entertianment district is about 1,000x better than NYCC. 99.5% of NYCC is drab basic design.

Meh, I firmly disagree with the ratio being "1000x better" but to each their own. For the sake of this thread I wont get into the debate, but my main point is that I wish this kind of design could see the light of day in our other "city centres". Both Etobicoke Centre and Scarborough Centre are filled with generic, spandrel-laced garbage which litter the entire district. At least there's some kind of an effort being placed in NYCC (ie: Hullmark Centre, Emerald City, etc..) because I couldnt even name you one landmark condo in Etobicoke/Scarborough Centre.

 

[Edward Skira]

What it looks like today.

 

[Amare]

Great photo @Edward Skira. There's definitely nothing that comes close to those two towers in the other city centres.

I'm just hoping that the glass on 4800 Yonge will look as good as it does on Hullmark Centre. The last thing we need is some L-Tower quality glass which would just end up completely destroying a good design.

 

[Sandpit]

What it looks like today.

View attachment 174830View attachment 174831

Do you think Jane/Highway 7 will look like that in 10-20 years? It's certainly supposed to, if the City of Vaughan gets its way.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

$11.5m section 37 - jeez, I think that's the largest i've seen for section 37. That's a good chunk of money.

Also, more office space is always good in my books. Went from 8,400sm to 15,000sm.

Section 37 Community Benefit amount is based mostly on formulas and some negotiation.

Here in North York Centre Secondary Plan Area, anything above 100m (160m here) and allowable 4.5FSI density (buyable to 6.0FSI max at prime subway station location) is charged at a higher rate for Section37 Community Benefit amount.

Density of North York Secondary Plan is generally 4.5 FSI (which usually allow for standard 100m height which is basically about 30 stories) but Menkes OMB of GibsonSquare now allow developments to exceed the former 100m height limit and higher density to about 6.0 FSI. In NYCC, going over 100m or 4.5 FSI density requires greater Section 37 payment rates. And no development in NYCC has ever gone over 6.0 FSI via City Planning. The 3 biggest development projects in NYCC are Tridel HullmarkCentre, Bazis EmeraldPark and Menkes GibsonSquare,... let's look at their density (FSI):

• GibsonSquare is twin towers of 42 stories about 125m + 12m high and 6.3 FSI via OMB
• HullmarkCentre is about 160m + 8m (NorthTower with 12 storey office + 33 storey condo for 45 stories whereas SouthTower is 35 storey) with 5.985 FSI
• EmeraldPark has 565+ residential condo units in 40 & 30 (+2) stories with height of 129m + 14m & 102m + 12m and officially 8.6 FSI on-site after density transfer from Lansing United Church; but it's 5.68 FSI combined with Lansing United Church. Note: LansingUnitedChurch is private property that could have been sold off to developer who could build on site but since church likes the area, church sells off density and height capacity to developer in exchange for rebuilt community centre for church.

Here, on-site Density is actually closer to their original 12.07FSI (fat podium increased from 5 to 8 storey, residential condo tower lost 3 floors and became about 10% skinnier (depth/width wise); it's 5.4FSI when averaged with density transfer from AlbertStanding Park & Beecroft Road! Huh?

Note: 30 years ago, Marathon/HR Development assembled most of land from Yonge to Frizzel Rd, Sheppard to Bogert/Poyntz to build 2 office towers here, Phase 1 was Nestle Canada Building completed 1994 - this site was to be Phase 2 (OMERS) but never started since office market tanked in mid-1990s. As part of that original aggreement with City of North York, developer gave up land for Beecroft Road extension south of Sheppard to Poyntz Ave and gave up land west of Beecroft Rd to Frizzel Rd, from Sheppard to Bogert to become Albert Standing Park. That deal was completed 30 years ago, there was no such thing as Air Rights, Density-Height Transfer back then. Now, Menkes is renegotiating a 30 year old deal they were never a part of!,... for Air Rights which never existed back then!

Aerial photo from 1985 - Note: Beecroft Road not yet extended south of Sheppard To Poyntz, Frizzel Rd intersect with Sheppard

Photo of area now:

Note: Bazis' Emerald Park site directly south (duo leaning green towers) was the most complicated development report (87 pages) seen within North York Centre Secondary Plan area due to height and density transfer from Lansing United Church (directly west). I can't wait for Menkes 4800 Yonge final report since it'll likely be even more complicated, really height & density transfer from AlbertStanding Park & part of Beecroft Road, renegotiating a 30year old development contract for which Menkes wasn't a part of originally; but Nestle Canada Building's HR Development was)

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2010/ny/bgrd/backgroundfile-29871.pdf

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

$11.5m section 37 - jeez, I think that's the largest i've seen for section 37. That's a good chunk of money.

I really don't think this Section37 Community Benefit amount is a win for the local community.

The reason why,.... just look across Yonge Street at Tridel Hullmark Centre - their Section37, Section 42 45 Roads & Parkland included 10 properties: 2 went to Doris South extension,... 3 properties of the 9 required for Maplehurst Park - new park a block north-east of the Rona at Sheppard & Willowdale (more than 1km away) and 3 properties for expansion of Edithvale Park which has a community centre (3km away). Will the locals most adversely affected by Tridel Hullmark Centre's excessive density & height benefit from these community benefits,. 3km away???? I don't know many local residents willing to walk their kids or dogs 3km to use Edithvale Park and then walk another 3km back!

The spirit of Section37 Community Benefit fund is to compensate local residents within 1km of the development who are adversely affected by the excessive height & density. The problem is Section37 Community Benefit fund is allowed to be spent anywhere within the ward,... Ward18 is a big ward! That's why it's always better to grab as much on-site Community Space as possible since it'll be locked into the location for local residents to benefit. Here, Menkes been complaining how hard it'll be for them to lease out the office space they're being made to build,... well, hand over a couple of floors of office space via Section 37 Community Benefit,.... so local community can get local Library, Senior Social Centre, Non-Profit ChildCare facility, etc,...

The Section37 Community Benefit for RioCan Yonge-Sheppard Centre includes on-site Community Spaces for Non-Profit ChildCare facility & Family Services Centre on 99-year lease; it originally amounted to 10% of the $200million project (since then project increased to $225million, now $250million). 10% is considered a huge win since Section37 is usually closer to 5% on large projects,...

Here we get a publicly accessible atrium/public room, with public art, at the base of the building (isn't most office lobbies supposed to be like that, but Menkes get credit for it?) - basically the originally designed retail space along Sheppard Ave - which would have been tough to lease out! Oh, well,... maybe the Golden Lions will be back!

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Here's the site plan for their original first floor. Notice their original subway connection at northwest corner via original knock-down wall into Nestle Canada Building's fully accessible Subway Entrance - they're back to this with the latest Feb 13 Settlement Offer.
View attachment 174548
One of the main issue I had with their Previous December Settlement Offer was that it included a new Subway Entrance at northeast corner (marked by large red "X") closest to intersection of Yonge & Sheppard. This new Subway Entrance would have also required a new Fare Gate Area on eastbound Sheppard Subway platform opposite to the Fare Gate Area for Tridel Hullmark Centre North Tower.

Menkes Settlement Offer expected their previously proposed Subway Entrance & Fare Gate Area to be paid for by Section 37 Community Benefit Fund! While Section 37 routinely covers part of the cost of Subway Entrances; Does anyone see why Section 37 Community Benefit should NOT pay for this subway entrance & required fare gate area?
Hint: bit of a tricky question, but perhaps a TTC subway station fan would have an idea!
Hint: When development has excessive height &/or density (here 160m height VS 100m max limit and much larger than allowable 4.5FSI & buyable 6.0FSI density), Section 37 Community Benefit is collected for facilities, infrastructure & services to compensate existing local residents adversely affected.

Section 37 Benefits

Section 37: An Essential Tool for Building Healthier Neighbourhoods helps explain Section 37 of the Planning Act and its role as an essential tool for building healthy neighbourhoods. Section 37 of the Planning Act permits the City to authorize increases in permitted height and/or density...

www.toronto.ca

This isn't going to be a popular opinion but I would prefer the new entrance over maintaining the artwork. I agree it's better than most found in TTC stations but I think the community is better served by more access to the subway.

The reason why 4800 Yonge December Settlement Offer's new subway entrance requiring new fare gate area should not be covered by Section37 Community Benefit is because noooo-body from local community would benefit from it!

As per TTC website: Sheppard-Yonge Subway Station already has 9 (official) Subway Entrances – the highest number of entrances in entire TTC Subway network; also has 5 fare gate areas (again, highest number in any station in entire TTC subway network (new proposal would have been entrance #10 with paid fare gate area #6!) - in comparison no station has 8 subway entrances; only Finch & Queen has 7 subway entrances; Eginton, Bloor-Yonge, King, St.Andews, Bay, Wilson has 6 entrances, 3.1 entrances per station on average): http://www.ttc.ca/Subway/Stations/Sheppard-Yonge/station.jsp#StationDescription_

The 9 existing TTC Subway Entrances (marked below with TTC logo, also marked are accessible entrances) completely surrounds 4800 Yonge’s proposed subway entrance (marked with red "X")

All local residents, regardless of direction (north, south, east or west) or which side of street, must walk pass at least one other existing subway entrance to reach the proposed Subway entrance at 4800 Yonge - making 4800 Yonge proposed Subway Entrance utterly useless for all local residents! That's why Section37 Community Benefit money should not be used to fund their new subway entrance!

Section 37 Community Benefit Fund should have been spent on securing on-site Community Space her for facility, infrastructure & services that’ll actually benefit the existing community; like community space for local Library (currently only ward with just one library!), Senior Social Centre, Non-Profit Childcare, Community Art Space, etc,…

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

$11.5m section 37 - jeez, I think that's the largest i've seen for section 37. That's a good chunk of money.

Also, more office space is always good in my books. Went from 8,400sm to 15,000sm.

The problem with the $11.5million in Section37 Community Benefit is the vast majority (so far about 75%) of that amount goes back to Menkes without any real benefit to the local community!

To give you an idea of what $11.5million can buy,.... $11.5million was the cost to rebuild a new 2-storey Avondale Public (Elementary) School for 553 students (already have the land, demolish old school and rebuild new 2-storey elementary school).
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...22s-kirkor-complete.4237/page-11#post-1145655

Hypothetically, let's say $11.5million of Section 37 Community Benefit money would have gotten the City 2 floors of Office Space on 99-year lease here at 4800 Yonge for Community Space to become Neighbourhood Library and Senior Social Centre,... so then why didn't the on-site Community Space materialize? What happened?


Hmmm,... Menkes increased the office space from 8,469.55 square metres to exactly 15,000 square metres; how odd,.. Menkes increased office space to exactly 15,000 square meter,.... Not one square meter or fraction more! Why?

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2019/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-129566.pdf

Here's the LoopHole Menkes is utilizing,.... From North York Centre Secondary Plan Section 3.3 Density Incentives d:

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/8fe9-cp-official-plan-SP-8-North-York-Centre.pdf

So by hitting the minimum 15,000 square metres office space target, some of Menkes' Section37 Community Benefit payment will go back to Menkes to pay for their Subway connection. How much?

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2019/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-129570.pdf

Of the $11.5million Section37 Community Benefit Fund, $5million will go back to fund Menkes subway connection; now via knockdown wall (about 15ft x 15ft) to connect to Nestle Canada Building's fully accessible Subway Entrance and to eliminate the 18 year old on-street Subway Entrance along south side of Sheppard Ave that creates a narrow 1.85 pedestrian clearway (2.1m minimum required by City now for arterial roads) - likely replace with ventilation grate.

Seriously, Menkes is getting $5million of Section37 Community Benefit money to cut a 15ft x 15ft hole in a knockdown wall,... and to demolish an on-street entrance and cover the staircase with air grates/vents!

NOTE: Adjacent to 4800 Yonge site is 10m high knock-down wall along east side of Nestle Canada Building - phase 1 of original dual office tower development from 1990s. Parking level also has knock-down walls.

BTW, condo developer charge a 10-15% premium for condo units with direct Subway Connection X about 500 condo units here plus office space,... that should already cover the cost of their subway connection! So Menkes is really double dipping and that $5million subsidy from Section37 Community Benefit is really going into Menkes profit!
https://www.thestar.com/business/2014/04/27/north_york_condo_developer_faces_30million_lawsuit.html

The original ground floor retail space along Sheppard was converted to interior lobby public space with art display (in settlement offer); if we assume that has a $3million value (retail space on 99-year lease) then $8million ($5million + $3million) of the $11.5million (about 75% of) Section37 Community Benefit have now returned back to Menkes 4800 Yonge - for items the Local Community would not utilize since,... local residents regardless of direction & which side of the street must pass by at least one other TTC Subway Entrance before they can utilize the Subway connection at Menkes 4800 Yonge!

That $11.5million Section37 Community Benefit contribution sure is disappearing fast after Menkes get $5million back & about $3million for the public art atrium subway connection. What about the remaining $3million in Section 37 Community Benefit fund,.... still waiting for the Fina Report but if it is unassigned it goes into a Slush Fund,..... the Local councillor can (& does) use this Section37 Slush Fund for pet projects to curry voters anywhere in the ward.

Remember, the original intent of Section37 Community Benefit is to provide community infrastructure & service to compensate the local residents adversely affected by the increased/excessive height & density of the project.
https://www.toronto.ca/city-governm...official-plan-guidelines/section-37-benefits/

BottomLine: This is a terrible deal for the local community. Always better to grab on-site Community Space for library, senior social centre, non-profit childcare, etc,.... that'll be better utilized by local residents.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Relax sunnyray you are are worrying too much about nothing...sit back an enjoy the ride...let it pan out

 

[Marcanadian]

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