ProjectEnd
Superstar
@DavidCapizzano is correct, this is a rental project.
Toronto 4800 Yonge Street | 168.24m | 49s | Menkes | Arquitectonica
- Thread starter pipolchap
- Start date
UtakataNoAnnex
Senior Member
"Category Commercial (Office, Retail), Residential (Market-Rate Rental)"
...so there you also go.
(It also says that in the DB banner up top...but in fairness, they ran out of room in the respective field put that in properly, so that detail is partially obscured. >.< )
Undead
Senior Member
Rents are brutal city wide.
lead82
Senior Member
Wait so this will be a rental building not a condo? Interesting development. The rents will be pricey given the location.
Karismarian
New Member
Does anyone know what kind of retail establishment we may get in this building?? Hopefully not a supermarket chain again we already have many selections in this area
They would only have space for a supermarket if they converted planned office space on the second level to retail… but it's not likely at all as you're right, there are a lot of supermarket options in your area. I wouldn't expect any announcement of what retail will be moving in for several years.
42
ProjectEnd
Superstar
/\ @interchange42 is correct here. The office component was a hard fought victory on the City's part. They would not entertain a conversion to retail lightly (or at all).
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
Converting one square meter of Office Space to retail will essentially cost Menkes $5 million! Losing one square metre of Office Space would place Menkes 4800 Yonge under the minimum 15,000m2 Office Space loop-hole in the North York Centre Secondary Plan that allows Menkes to get $5m of their $11.5m Section 37 Community Benefit money back to subsidize their Subway Entrance!
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/8fe9-cp-official-plan-SP-8-North-York-Centre.pdf
By hitting the minimum 15,000 square metres office space target, $5m of Menkes' $11.5m Section37 Community Benefit payment will go back to Menkes to subsidize their Subway connection.
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2019/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-129570.pdf
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...kes-arquitectonica.17877/page-15#post-1429912
A subway entrance that I argued would be totally worthless to the Community,... since Yonge-Sheppard Subway Station already has 8 subway entrances - regardless of which direction Subway users coming from or even which side of the street - they'll have to pass by at least one other subway entrance to reach the new Menkes 4800 Yonge Subway entrance!
urbantoronto.ca
As for the retail space here,... it's small ground floor retail space,.... and I'm hearing we're getting another,... bubble tea shop! Can't have too many in this Yonge corridor in North York!
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/8fe9-cp-official-plan-SP-8-North-York-Centre.pdf
By hitting the minimum 15,000 square metres office space target, $5m of Menkes' $11.5m Section37 Community Benefit payment will go back to Menkes to subsidize their Subway connection.
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2019/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-129570.pdf
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...kes-arquitectonica.17877/page-15#post-1429912
A subway entrance that I argued would be totally worthless to the Community,... since Yonge-Sheppard Subway Station already has 8 subway entrances - regardless of which direction Subway users coming from or even which side of the street - they'll have to pass by at least one other subway entrance to reach the new Menkes 4800 Yonge Subway entrance!
4800 Yonge Street | 168.24m | 49s | Menkes | Arquitectonica
Hmm?..168.4 meters tall will be North Yorks tallest, unbelievable, looking at the 100m list there are 107 buildings ( planned, under construction, built) in the GTA that will be taller than that
As for the retail space here,... it's small ground floor retail space,.... and I'm hearing we're getting another,... bubble tea shop! Can't have too many in this Yonge corridor in North York!
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AHK
Senior Member
My perspective - this is another example of the City living in a romanticized past in the hope of returning conditions to a state which is just not going to happen.
This is just one of a number of recent proposals for the redevelopment of commercial buildings into mixed use with substantial residential components have included material office replacement components - even when the entire existing office structure is being demolished.
Given the pervasive adoption of work from home, already starting pre-Covid supported by technological advances over the recent years - at this point the entire residential component should be counted as contributing towards the replacement office requirement.
I suspect that the prospects of the office replacement component being profitable on its own merits for the developer, and in particular at this location, are marginal or non-existent. That being the case, the office component is in fact being materially subsidized by the residential portion of the building. The result will be a very counter productive increase in the development costs for the residential units.
In other words, this is a losing situation in two ways - first of all, the approved density could have been used for additional residential units, helping the housing situation, and secondly, the incremental costs loaded onto the residential units to support the replacement office component further hurt affordability.
So given the current market situation, over availability of office space in Toronto, combined with a housing shortage - it would seem to make sense to me that both Council and the City's Planning department back off from requiring workplace replacement components within new primarily residential buildings being proposed for existing commercial building locations.
Including this one, even though it has already been negotiated and agreed between the City and the developer.
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
@AHK Yes, the "romanticized past" when a Downtown along Yonge Corridor was proposed by City of North York Mayor Mel Lastman in the early 1970s with the Yonge Subway being extended to Sheppard and Finch Stations,... their conceptual model (Yonge corridor looking north from Florence/Avondale at bottom, Sheppard, to ParkHome/Empress at top) presented in 1974 at City of North York's City Hall at 5000 Yonge (North York Civic Centre built in 1976)
- was for only Office Towers (all white in conceptual model) to be on Yonge frontage lots
- with apartment buildings (horizontal stripes in conceptual model) "off-Yonge" towards the Service Roads of Beecroft and Doris,...
This was to create a "balanced" Downtown with good mixture of Office VS Apartment/Condo VS Retail,... "balanced" intensification to stack new property tax-payers on top of each other,... while keeping the surrounding Residential House Area's property tax low,...
BTW, notice in the conceptual model a CN-Tower like building in front of North York Performing Arts Centre, a building over the intersection of Yonge and North York Blvd / Elmwood Ave, lots of elevated pedestrian walkways, Yonge St with tree-lined Centre Median
If you walk along Yonge Corridor in North York,... you'd see this "balanced" Downtown held up throughout the 1970's, 1980's, and early/mid-1990's,.... SheppardCentre's two office towers along Yonge frontage with 3 Forest Laneway apartments off-Yonge (shown in conceptual model),... Office Buildings along Yonge included Warner Brothers, Proctor & Gamble, Nestle Canada (Phase 1 of this site off-Yonge), Joseph Shepard Canada Building, Madison Centre, Royal Bank building 5001 Yonge, North York City Centre, 5400 Yonge, Xerox/North American Life Insurance Buildings, Bel-Aire Insurance, Co-Operators,....
But a few years prior to 1998 amalgamation,... Menkes' Empress Walk (to be renamed RioCan Empress) was granted permission to build two condo towers on Yonge St frontage (The Pinnacle & Royal Pinnacle) - hidden by 3-4 storey Podium Mall at base! And that opened the flood-gate for Condo Development gone wild!
Since 1998 Amalgamation,... the North York Centre Secondary Plan (Yonge corridor from Hwy 401 to Drewry/Cummer between Beecroft to Doris) has seen over 70 new Condo towers built and only 1 Office tower (5000 Yonge - TransAmerica/Ivari/Aegon Building as conditon for 5 Menkes condo towers (Ultima, Prelude, Broadway)) built in that time (yes, there's also a few storey of Office-Condos at Tridel HullmarkCentre, Bazis Emerald Park and soon G-Group Ellie Condo - but those are mainly sold to "OverSea Investors" with no intension of opening up offices here or even renting out the Office Space so many still remain empty concrete shells!,... thus the Employment Area didn't materialize),.... this created an "unbalanced" Vertical Sleeping Community!,... with vast majority of local commuters rushing out of the area in AM Peak Time and then rushing back in at PM Peak Time (difference being quite dramatic on Yonge Subway train volume for Southbound (out) VS Northbound (in) Train)
This "unbalanced" Vertical Sleeping Community lacks local Office Employment Area and thus put too much stress on Yonge Subway Line and Traffic as most residents commute out of the area for work. While the current Pandemic allows some to Work-From-Home in the short term,... long-term, why would people overpay for small condo units on Subway Line if they don't need to be close to work? Better alternative for Work-At-Home is to find larger cheaper residential alternatives further away from work!
Here, this site is at interchange of Yonge Subway and Sheppard STUBway lines and stone throw from Highway 401,... if City can't get Office Space here,.. where can City demand Office Space?
Anyways,.... Menkes 4800 Yonge ad,... kind of tough to do the middle one if there's not enough Office Space here,...
www.menkes.com
- was for only Office Towers (all white in conceptual model) to be on Yonge frontage lots
- with apartment buildings (horizontal stripes in conceptual model) "off-Yonge" towards the Service Roads of Beecroft and Doris,...
This was to create a "balanced" Downtown with good mixture of Office VS Apartment/Condo VS Retail,... "balanced" intensification to stack new property tax-payers on top of each other,... while keeping the surrounding Residential House Area's property tax low,...
BTW, notice in the conceptual model a CN-Tower like building in front of North York Performing Arts Centre, a building over the intersection of Yonge and North York Blvd / Elmwood Ave, lots of elevated pedestrian walkways, Yonge St with tree-lined Centre Median
If you walk along Yonge Corridor in North York,... you'd see this "balanced" Downtown held up throughout the 1970's, 1980's, and early/mid-1990's,.... SheppardCentre's two office towers along Yonge frontage with 3 Forest Laneway apartments off-Yonge (shown in conceptual model),... Office Buildings along Yonge included Warner Brothers, Proctor & Gamble, Nestle Canada (Phase 1 of this site off-Yonge), Joseph Shepard Canada Building, Madison Centre, Royal Bank building 5001 Yonge, North York City Centre, 5400 Yonge, Xerox/North American Life Insurance Buildings, Bel-Aire Insurance, Co-Operators,....
But a few years prior to 1998 amalgamation,... Menkes' Empress Walk (to be renamed RioCan Empress) was granted permission to build two condo towers on Yonge St frontage (The Pinnacle & Royal Pinnacle) - hidden by 3-4 storey Podium Mall at base! And that opened the flood-gate for Condo Development gone wild!
Since 1998 Amalgamation,... the North York Centre Secondary Plan (Yonge corridor from Hwy 401 to Drewry/Cummer between Beecroft to Doris) has seen over 70 new Condo towers built and only 1 Office tower (5000 Yonge - TransAmerica/Ivari/Aegon Building as conditon for 5 Menkes condo towers (Ultima, Prelude, Broadway)) built in that time (yes, there's also a few storey of Office-Condos at Tridel HullmarkCentre, Bazis Emerald Park and soon G-Group Ellie Condo - but those are mainly sold to "OverSea Investors" with no intension of opening up offices here or even renting out the Office Space so many still remain empty concrete shells!,... thus the Employment Area didn't materialize),.... this created an "unbalanced" Vertical Sleeping Community!,... with vast majority of local commuters rushing out of the area in AM Peak Time and then rushing back in at PM Peak Time (difference being quite dramatic on Yonge Subway train volume for Southbound (out) VS Northbound (in) Train)
This "unbalanced" Vertical Sleeping Community lacks local Office Employment Area and thus put too much stress on Yonge Subway Line and Traffic as most residents commute out of the area for work. While the current Pandemic allows some to Work-From-Home in the short term,... long-term, why would people overpay for small condo units on Subway Line if they don't need to be close to work? Better alternative for Work-At-Home is to find larger cheaper residential alternatives further away from work!
Here, this site is at interchange of Yonge Subway and Sheppard STUBway lines and stone throw from Highway 401,... if City can't get Office Space here,.. where can City demand Office Space?
Anyways,.... Menkes 4800 Yonge ad,... kind of tough to do the middle one if there's not enough Office Space here,...
4800 Yonge Street | Menkes Developments
taal
Senior Member
But this begs the question, what do you encourage the city to do in this situation ? Work from home is not a factor here, this has been an on going issue for years in NYCC, and I'm sure the work from home trend will only exacerbate matters but it's not the root cause.
Here's the thing, let's step back a little; Over the last 20 year period there's been muted demand for new commercial development anywhere in the city outside of the downtown area (with a few minor exceptions here and there). At the same time there has been demand in parts of the 905 (predominantly office parks), I'd argue, downtown Markham, as an example, has struggled to find interest, yes there has been a few office buildings but it was nothing like the original vision. VCC may face a similar fate to NYCC in the longer term as well.
With all that said, while there's been little demand for new construction, most of the office space in NYCC corridor has been in relatively high demand, while vacancy rates are higher now, they have been relatively low prior to the pandemic. So the question here being is it just the economics of new construction that aren't viable, or demand for space, if it's the former, one would argue what the city is doing is the right thing i.e. force developers to bear the burden of some of the costs.
With that said I'm not sure the current approach of essentially enforcing large developments to have a small portion of office space is the answer, but at the same time I'm not sure what one should do, you could say, only office development of some size is mandated here but that could result in the space sitting idle for years, decades even. But once this space becomes condos it's never going to available again ...
A final point, I wouldn't dismiss the amount of office space already built in NYCC, the entire corridor (though I believe this includes Yonge and York Mills) is ~ 10 million square feet, which is one of the largest nodes in the GTA. Source: https://www.collierscanada.com/en-ca/research/toronto-office-market-report-2022-q3
Here's the thing, let's step back a little; Over the last 20 year period there's been muted demand for new commercial development anywhere in the city outside of the downtown area (with a few minor exceptions here and there). At the same time there has been demand in parts of the 905 (predominantly office parks), I'd argue, downtown Markham, as an example, has struggled to find interest, yes there has been a few office buildings but it was nothing like the original vision. VCC may face a similar fate to NYCC in the longer term as well.
With all that said, while there's been little demand for new construction, most of the office space in NYCC corridor has been in relatively high demand, while vacancy rates are higher now, they have been relatively low prior to the pandemic. So the question here being is it just the economics of new construction that aren't viable, or demand for space, if it's the former, one would argue what the city is doing is the right thing i.e. force developers to bear the burden of some of the costs.
With that said I'm not sure the current approach of essentially enforcing large developments to have a small portion of office space is the answer, but at the same time I'm not sure what one should do, you could say, only office development of some size is mandated here but that could result in the space sitting idle for years, decades even. But once this space becomes condos it's never going to available again ...
A final point, I wouldn't dismiss the amount of office space already built in NYCC, the entire corridor (though I believe this includes Yonge and York Mills) is ~ 10 million square feet, which is one of the largest nodes in the GTA. Source: https://www.collierscanada.com/en-ca/research/toronto-office-market-report-2022-q3
Undead
Senior Member
Some glare today:
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Seeing this referred to as a new condo launch for early 2023 now on various broker websites. Anyone know what the tenure is actually going to be here or is that just speculation on part of brokers?
Karismarian
New Member
I heard this was rental??