Toronto 2024 Olympic Bid (Dead)

[Tewder]

Tewder,

Toronto is already the recipient of well over $10 billion (maybe closer to $12B?) in public transit expansion money. This includes the ongoing Spadina subway extension, the various transit city LRT lines, the airport rail link, the Mississauga transitway and the upgrades to Union Station.

This is a significant chunk of change. There is a bigger problem here: all this money is being spent, and the results aren't exactly earth shattering. The projects I listed above aren't going to revolutionize the way Torontonians get around the same way that, say, the RER did for Paris when all of a sudden there was a second metro network that catapulted you across the city in several different directions in just fifteen minutes. For the price we are paying for transit expansion, we'd better be getting the kinds of improvements that will transform our city's travel experience for a century. Before we go looking for the Olympics to help us with our transit problems, perhaps we should take a deeper look at what money we already have earmarked and ask ourselves if we could have spent it more wisely. After all, $12 billion is a lot to play around with.

I agree Hipster that there are enormous issues here with transit, and as you say it is not effective to simply throw money around. One of the points I made in an earlier post is that the situation of gridlock and underfunding didn't materialize over night. Politically it has been a dead-zone issue for decades, nobody wanted to touch it... and the funding in place hasn't changed things much really. It remains highly politicized to the extent that we can barely reach consensus on what modes of transit are needed, never mind where they should go. It's a blinking mess, in other words, and no wonder the choices that have been made, the priorities etc, are questionable...

This also brings me back to another point I made earlier where I question whether Toronto is truly ready to bid for a games, let alone host them. We simply don't have our act together in so many ways, and transit is just one of the issues - albeit one of the most pervasive ones - that underscores a fundamental lack of maturity and vision. This isn't a swipe at Toronto here either, but just trying to keep it real...

My position on whether an Oympics games can be a net positive for a city, or Toronto at the right time more specifically, is based more on an assumption of what could be done in the best of worlds and given the best of intentions. Some cities have done this and I'd like to think that Toronto could at some point too, even if I must admit I'm not convinced the time has come yet. TOperson's perspective, for the most part, lacks credibility in my eyes because it lacks any objectivity whatsoever in a black/white kind of way. In my experience of the world reality is never that way, unless you are pushing an agenda.

 

[jn_12]

Made in paint. Works alright for a 1min job.

 

[Red October]

Anyway, how much of which Toronto parks are you willing to give up for the games?

You conveniently forgot the "temporarily" part of that leading question. Obviously the equestrian venue isn't permanent, and neither would any that are put in Toronto parks.

While we're at it, which neighbourhoods are you willing to displace?

How about the same zero as London? Unless you're referring to the industrial brownfield wasteland (like in London), in which case I'd answer "all of them".

 

[Red October]

I think the only advantage of getting the Olympics would be improved transportation.

Also half decent athletics facilities. Something this city has a hilariously pathetic number of for its size.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Also half decent athletics facilities. Something this city has a hilariously pathetic number of for its size.

It is true we're woefully short of velodromes, and a Summer Olympics will go a long way towards solving our need for more ice rinks and recreational soccer fields.

;-)

 

[Red October]

It is true we're woefully short of velodromes, and a Summer Olympics will go a long way towards solving our need for more ice rinks and recreational soccer fields.

;-)

Actually I was talking about our hilariously shitty aquatics facilities.

Answer me this.. you're a diver, and you want to practice on a 10m platform anywhere between October and May.. Where do you go?
Exactly.

 

[TOperson]

"You conveniently forgot the "temporarily" part of that leading question. Obviously the equestrian venue isn't permanent, and neither would any that are put in Toronto parks."

Did you look at the website? Did you see what is happening to that park? Some of that damage will take decades to repair, and some parts of the park will never be the same again. And we don't know yet if it is truly temporary. This is the first time in almost 200 years that any part of that park has been privatized and given the history of privatization with the Olympics, there may be nasty surprises to come.

You conveniently left out the fact that using Greenwich Park for equestrian facilities was TOTALLY unnecessary. Why would LOCOG decide they absolutely had to have that park and no other would do? That "temporary" facility cost 41 million pounds. You don't think somebody was taking care of somebody with that project? Why should British taxpayers fork over so much for a temporary facility when others were available, and when their health, education and other budgets have been cut? How is that in any way rational or responsible?


"How about the same zero as London? Unless you're referring to the industrial brownfield wasteland (like in London), in which case I'd answer "all of them".

How about you take a look at this website (which I've posted repeatedly on this thread), that goes into a lot of detail about the displacement in London. http://www.gamesmonitor.org.uk/

Upthread I also posted other links about the same issue with all of the modern Olympics. It's happening in Rio right now.

I guess it's easier to hold on to your erroneous beliefs if you avoid any information that contradicts them, eh?

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

Where should LOCOG have put the equestrian facilities?

 

[TOperson]

Actually I was talking about our hilariously shitty aquatics facilities.

Answer me this.. you're a diver, and you want to practice on a 10m platform anywhere between October and May.. Where do you go?
Exactly.

Um, maybe you suck it up and deal? The public is not responsible for providing perfect facilities for every single athletic activity imaginable.

 

[TOperson]

Where should LOCOG have put the equestrian facilities?

Seriously? You don't think ENGLAND would already have superb equestrian facilities? Zara Phillips must have trained and competed somewhere.

The NOGOE website mentions a couple places but I can't remember their names offhand.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

ENGLAND maybe - but London, no

 

[TOperson]

My position on whether an Oympics games can be a net positive for a city, or Toronto at the right time more specifically, is based more on an assumption of what could be done in the best of worlds and given the best of intentions. Some cities have done this and I'd like to think that Toronto could at some point too, even if I must admit I'm not convinced the time has come yet. TOperson's perspective, for the most part, lacks credibility in my eyes because it lacks any objectivity whatsoever in a black/white kind of way. In my experience of the world reality is never that way, unless you are pushing an agenda.

Hilarious that you wrote the highlighted stuff and then accused me of of lacking objectivity. In the same paragraph no less!

I've posted more links and info on this thread than anyone else, and a great deal more than you, Tewder. My comments are backed up by the research of academics and economists, and the direct experiences of residents of host cities. Do they all "lack objectivity" too? But you maintain it with your assumption re: best worlds and best intentions?

 

[TOperson]

ENGLAND maybe - but London, no

Oh for crying out loud. There was no need to have the equestrian events right inside London when good facilities are at most a 60-90 minute train ride away.

In 2008, the equestrian events were held 1200km away from Beijing.

According to another poster upthread, some of the 1976 events were held in Ottawa and Toronto, and some of the 2012 events are taking place in Manchester and Glasgow.

So, no, LOCOG did NOT have to touch Greenwich Park.

 

[Red October]

Um, maybe you suck it up and deal? The public is not responsible for providing perfect facilities for every single athletic activity imaginable.

Suck it up? Every single athletic activity imaginable? So you really don't care about our national athletes then.. got it. As for the second part, this is swimming and diving here, not exactly obscure sports.

And yes I've seen that link you posted, very hilarious, and completely objective too. Like going to the Toronto Sun for objective opinions on David Miller.

 

[jn_12]

TOperson:
Okay, so LOCOG made the choice to use Greenwich Park and there have been concerns about this amongst locals. As someone who spent time in Grad school researching the impacts of Olympics, and as someone who has worked in heritage planning, I definitely understand the concerns related to Greenwich Park. Yes, NOGOE has some valid concerns but some are more valid than others. I think some of it is very much overblown (such as the complaints that the Park has been privatized, as if it will forever be owned by a for-profit company) in the same way that the Island Airport is an issue for a small vocal group of waterfront dwellers here (I'm a waterfront dweller myself and don't share the sentiment). I think it's unfair to prognosticate that the Park will be ruined for decades to come and to state that as fact. We've had parks in Toronto "privatized" for short periods (such as HTO Park during the Cirque du Soleil performances during Luminato) with large stages and trucks moved in and there was no long term impact of privatization or state of disrepair within the park. That's not to compare HTO to Greenwich in terms of stature, but I'm sure you can see some of the parallels. In the end, LOCOG consulted with groups like English Heritage and The Royal Parks and I doubt that any concerns they may have were ignored.

Now, to answer your question, Zara Phillips trains at Addington Manor which is about an hour and a half outside of London and would have been the farthest venue from London outside of sailing (obviously) and various football venues (again, obviously). LOCOG used Greenwich because it fit their theme of putting events in London's historic locales. When that's the theme, you'll always be stepping on someone's toes.

My question is what does LOCOG's use of Greenwich Park have to do with anything? Simply because LOCOG may or may not have made a mistake, that has little to do with a potential Toronto games. I'd also suggest that simply because something happens in one city during one Olympics, doesn't mean that it will occur in another. Every Olympics is different, face their own issues and some are more successful than others (notice I said "successful" and not "profitable" as you'd be hard pressed to find accurate figures of profitability). Each affects their city in a different way. You seem to be overtly negative about a Games, but I'm always skeptical of people who see these things in black and white (for the record, I'm neither for or against hosting without seeing plans).