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Toronto 2024 Olympic Bid (Dead)

kkgg7 said:
Agree with most of what you said too, particularly about the popularity of American consumer goods and politics in Canada.

I almost always feel sad for Canada every time something happening (nothing extremely important) in US makes headline news in Canadian media across the country. No country would be interested in reporting the progress of the American federal election to such details, for example, who won which state, who said what, blah blah. Canadians often forget it is another country. My friend joked to me that the Canada media feels so assimilated in the American politics that they say "President Obama" instead of "US president Obama", as if it is their president too. No other country would do that, ever.

The dominance of American consumer goods is annoying too. If you go to any grocery store or drug store, there are more products imported from the US than made in Canada. Do we really have to eat American tomatoes, apples, and strawberries? Maybe we do, I don't know. When I was in the US, I seldom seen products "imported from Canada).

You may think these are just politics and media, but they add up and make everyone unsure how Canadian Canada really is, since our exposure to a foreign country, its culture, its products is so overwhelming, we wonder what is left.
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We are directly linked to the us economy wise because of proximity so of course we care may more than anyone else besides Americans who becomes the president.
 
kkgg7 said:
I don't agree. Western culture is NOT American culture, although most countries are influenced by it. The British culture is still distinct from American as they produce tons of high quality media products even the US needs to make copycats. They talk differently, eat different food, and they don't exclusively watch American TV/movies. BBC for example, produced abundance of great programs. Australia, I am not 100% certain, but someone used to post something saying that they don't rely so much on American culture content either since they are so far away.

Canada is a completely different story in terms of the extent of American influence. Don't try to bring other countries in to justify "it is a global thing, not just Canada". It IS. Take a look at our TV premium channel. How many are American and how many are Canadian. We are a cultural colony of the US, admit it. Other English speaking countries don't even come close to that.
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Maybe you should become an American citizen instead
 
kkgg7 said:
hard to define because it has a little bit of everything and not so much of its own. US, UK, France, even Asia. Yes, I agree that Canadian culture is somewhat different from American culture, but the similarity is like 85%. There is difference but not enough to make it stand out, like the French are different from the Germans, or the Japanese different from the Chinese.
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The French are culturally similar to the Germans throughout the Alsace and Lorraine regions. They are also very similar to the Italians along the Mediterranean coast and throughout Provence. In the northwest they share traditional languages and culture with the British... and of course there is a shared 'European' identity common all across Europe. If you're implying that a nation having 'a little bit of everything' precludes any common national identity you are completely wrong. Strong regional and national identities often co-exist, along with very localized ones in some smaller countries. This is the same in the USA and the same in China, I'm sure, where there are enormous linguistic and cultural differences from one region to another. In fact, what is China but an artificially imposed identify over disparate peoples?? What are most countries if not artificial collectivities with fairly arbitrary borders??



kkgg7 said:
Is it because "we just view it as the way we live while an outsider may be able to define it easier"? good try but hardly. I am sure ask any Italian or Chinese, they will have no trouble telling all about what their country is about and how it is different from the rest of the world. And plus, most outsiders are NOT able to define it either, not just Canadians.
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Not true at all. People around the world have a very clear perception of Canada and Canadians and it is remarkably different than the perception they have of America. You only have to travel abroad with an American flag on your backpack to understand this!

... and Italians are notoriously 'un-unified' in how they perceive their identity, by the way. A Roman is a Roman first and foremost, a Tuscan a Tuscan, and so on. Again, the very notion of Italian 'nationhood' is fairly modern and fairly artificial.

kkgg7 said:
Many have said "American friends" telling them how Canadian culture is vastly different from American culture, as if it is solid evidence. I am sure they are just being polite and nice. Why would an American friend you are familiar rudely say "you guys have no culture and everything is basically borrowed from us"? It is like your friend will also say your kid is cute and smart. Why do they want to offend you any way?
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Trust me, my partner (with whom I am married) is not that polite!

Look, for somebody who claims he can pick out a Japanese person from a Chinese person on sight you seem remarkably unable to see or unwilling to acknowledge subtle differences anywhere else, quite frankly, and herein lays the problem with this debate: you refuse to want to acknowledge a Canadian identity because that would mean acknowledging some connection to this place (beyond your passport), and clearly you don't want to do that.

kkgg7 said:
But as a Canadian, when you travel to or live in urban US, do you really experience some sort of "culture shock"? Seriously? I have lived a large city in both country, and I am confident to say the similarities (85%) completely overwhelms the differences (15%) when everything considered.
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You keep insisting on the comparison between the US and Canada, that it somehow negates the existence of a Canadian identity as an original entity. You are wrong. America doesn't pre-exist Canada (and I'm not talking 1776 vs 1867 here). We share a common historic ancestry with Britain, a language, and a western lifestyle and culture, no question, but these aren't things that define the Canadian collectivity. As has been pointed out here many times these things are shared all around the world. If you're looking for 'culture shock' you may have far to go to find it in this age of globalization, mass media and cultural imperialism!

kkgg7 said:
One way for Canada to develop its own culture is to stop relying on American culture so habitually every single day (of course stop speaking English would be the best efficient way but not possible), ranging from P&G consumer goods to what you watch and listen on the media. Second is to start considering the US as simply foreign country like the rest of the world (cut the umbilical cord). The US should not be the benchmark of everything we do, there is the rest of the world. There are many small-big neighbouring countries and I have never seem one dependent on the other like Canada does on the US.
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Just to rock your boat: Our proximity to the USA is indeed part of our shared reality and part of what informs Canadians from coast to coast, like it or not. Wars in North America throughout the 18th century and early 19th century formed our borders and allegiences and they haven't changed over the centuries... and since then Canada is in the unique position of being a sovereign, independent nation alongside the political, economic and cultural behemoth that is the USA. This informs who we are and there is no denying it. As Trudeau said, living next to the USA is like sleeping with an elephant in that you can't ignore its existence and any move it makes is going to effect you big time!! So, it isn't so much we define ourselves by America but America's presence is part of what defines us... in other words, I may live by the sea and its proximity may shape me but it doesn't mean I am of the sea, obviously.
 
Great notebook article from Edward Keenan in today's Grid about not arguing with folks who start with 'Toronto is not good at x or y, so therefore is not a world class city.' In the context of this 'Canadian culture' debate, my list above missed some of the greatest current Canadian musicians (I'm sure due to my age, not their popularity):

"Not only that, The Grid recently ran a cover story about how our music scene—led by Drake, Feist, K’naan, The Weeknd, and Fucked Up—dominates global charts"

http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/the-world-class-city-trap/

The comment that 'Canadian culture is different, but I can't define it' is much the way I feel about it -- I'd almost say that I aggressively don't want to be forced to define what I mean by Canadian culture.
 
I don't think we need to wring our hands about this, and we shouldn't be goaded into it by a disgruntled 'foreigner'.

National identities are 'forged' out of organic bits, but how we choose to interpret these pieces is up to us. This is the same everywhere, by the way. All nations have founding myths and common values that the people collectively agree to buy into (or are forced to buy into in places like China). Regional differences are far more likely to run deeper than somewhat artificial national ones, quite frankly.

As is often the case with Canada, the issue isn't a lack of history, heritage, culture or identity (no matter what the uninformed say) but at times an inability/unwillingness to coalesce the interpretation of these things... which does ebb and floe by the way. At times in our history Canadian identity/mythology have proven very focused and effective (1812, WWI and WWII, Expo, Vancouver Olympics).
 
Tewder said:
I don't think we need to wring our hands about this, and we shouldn't be goaded into it by a disgruntled 'foreigner'.

National identities are 'forged' out of organic bits, but how we choose to interpret these pieces is up to us. This is the same everywhere, by the way. All nations have founding myths and common values that the people collectively agree to buy into (or are forced to buy into in places like China). Regional differences are far more likely to run deeper than somewhat artificial national ones, quite frankly.

As is often the case with Canada, the issue isn't a lack of history, heritage, culture or identity (no matter what the uninformed say) but at times an inability/unwillingness to coalesce the interpretation of these things... which does ebb and floe by the way. At times in our history Canadian identity/mythology have proven very focused and effective (1812, WWI and WWII, Expo, Vancouver Olympics).
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Not true at all. People around the world have a very clear perception of Canada and Canadians and it is remarkably different than the perception they have of America. You only have to travel abroad with an American flag on your backpack to understand this!

... and Italians are notoriously 'un-unified' in how they perceive their identity, by the way. A Roman is a Roman first and foremost, a Tuscan a Tuscan, and so on. Again, the very notion of Italian 'nationhood' is fairly modern and fairly artificial.
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I don't think we are necessarily, I would just like to touch on to your point about perception. Many americans use canadian flags when travelling because americans are treated bad in many places. Americans are seen as rude. Canadians are polite.
 
... absolutely! That perception has been formed over generations, going back to the first and second world wars at least.
 
Awesome, much overdue. After Tokyo or Istanbul gets 2020 it will have been 28 years since North America hosted them and 48 years since Canada last hosted them. The Winter Olympics (which are a whole different beast) will have been 14 years before (longer than the time between Montreal and Calgary) and for comparison Salt Lake City was 6 years after Atlanta!

We came so close in 2008, with politics being the only reason we didn't win. The IOC even said that Toronto's bid was their favourite. 3rd time's the charm!
 
Maybe I'm just reading too much into things, but I thought the addition of the Olympics rider to the World's Fair motion was mostly Minnan-Wong's attempt to sabotage the whole venture. I don't think he cares about an Olympics, I think he just cares to poison any left-wing motion that comes forward at council.
 
I think a city like Toronto should get either the Olympics or the World Exposition to further advance itself. Pan-Am is just a stretching exercise. like do you even know there is something called Asian Games (or the Asiad)?

Olympics is one of the Most supreme ways on the planet! to bring the world into the land that we're so proud of letting them know who we are and what we can present them, AND at the same time to educate the domestic people through the glorious events.

Sure, there is the price to pay. But I would say it's cheap price so many cities poorer than toronto willingly paid.
I just hope that we're good enough to host one here in Toronto. :)
 
What a coincidence this afternoon: I'm in Calgary and staying at the Sheraton Eau Claire. Going up, a bunch of people with french accents step into the elevator. One of them mentions "Next week in Lausanne", then I see the folder in his hand says: "IOC". I say: "Oh you're from the International Olympic Committee?" then I ask what they think of Toronto 2024. They all agreed that our chances are good but that we should have bid for 2020 where we'd be a shoe in. We were so close...
 
The cost of security at summer Olympics is a huge issue now. Londoners are worried, as their games are about to start, and the rest of Britain is outraged with the increased security costs.

Toronto (and Canada) must consider all of this in their bid for 2024. In an ideal world, Olympics are about sport, but security is now the number one issue. So unfortunate.
 
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