Toronto 2020 Olympic Bid

[Admiral Beez]

Not to sound insensitive, but the Greeks aren't quite known for their financial prowess and adherence to deadlines.

Well, if we're going the stereotype route, then we should ask who do you think owns most of the construction companies in Ontario who would be doing the work? It's not tight schedule Germans, but southern Europeans (Italians, Greeks, etc) and their descendants.

 

[toforumer]

It's gonna be almost 10 years since Toronto lost its bid for the 2008 Olympics. I think that's plenty of time for the citizens to get over it, lick their wounds and want to get back into the race.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It's gonna be almost 10 years since Toronto lost its bid for the 2008 Olympics. I think that's plenty of time for the citizens to get over it, lick their wounds and want to get back into the race.

I sure hope so. My hope is that we get the Olympics and thus never have to obsess about them again.

 

[tkip]

Well, if we're going the stereotype route, then we should ask who do you think owns most of the construction companies in Ontario who would be doing the work? It's not tight schedule Germans, but southern Europeans (Italians, Greeks, etc) and their descendants.

A greek classmate of mine in college back in 2001 told the class how greeks back home were pretty... laidback and projects were often left till the last minute. His words, not mine. Also, 2 greek guys at my work openly joke about the rampant corruption back home and how turks get rounded up and beated by police routinely. Let the cries of discrimination begin...

 

[nfitz]

Not to sound insensitive, but the Greeks aren't quite known for their financial prowess and adherence to deadlines.

What ... as opposed to Canada, who last time they got the summer games, didn't finish the stadium until a decade after the games had ended?

 

[Filip]

What ... as opposed to Canada, who last time they got the summer games, didn't finish the stadium until a decade after the games had ended?

Quebec also isn't the best example.

 

[GenerationW]

Quebec also isn't the best example.

Well if financial prowess is the goal, I say we look to the fine examples of the U.S., Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, and Iceland.

As for the Greeks, they've pulled a financial rabbit out of the hat a number of times, and in fact Greece hosted the first modern Olympics less than three years after announcing official bankruptcy.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Well if financial prowess is the goal, I say we look to the fine examples of the U.S.

IIRC, the Atlanta games turned a nice profit.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

IIRC, the Atlanta games turned a nice profit.

But was considered one of the most awful games ever -- crass, way too commercial, long commutes between sites -- and that was before the bomber.

LA is a better example of a US game done right. IMHO, the biggest problem with the Summers are they are too big. Winters can be 'cosy', fun, a great vibe. (I went to Calgary in '88, and I think Vancouver did a great job.) I'm really not a fan of an Olympics here.

 

[jn_12]

As I've said before, anyone who claims that X made or lost money has no clue. Measuring the economic impact, revenues, spending, etc. of an event like this is impossible to do. There are a few reasons for this:

1. Infrastructure spending - Are improvements to airports, highways, public transit included or not? should they be included if they were going to be done eventually anyways?
2. Revenues - Are we just counting tickets sold? Merchandise? How about tax dollars accumulated from hotels, restaurants, etc? How do we know if a dollar spent was directly caused by the Olympics? Are we measuring tax revenues from every level of government? What about tax dollars stemming from multiplier effects (which can't be measured accurately anyways - see pt 4)
3. Economic impact - When do we start measuring and when do we stop? If I watched the Sydney Olympics 10 years ago and thought "hey, I never knew Sydney was so cool. I'd now like to go to Sydney" and saved my pennies and left tomorrow, would that be counted? It should be.
4. Multiplier Effects and leakages - Multiplier effects are impossible to accurately measure. Tied into this is the concept of leakages. Does the money spent in Toronto stay in Toronto, or is it transferred to a head office elsewhere?
5. No two events are measured the same way. You won't be able to look at Athens and compare it to Sydney or Vancouver. Different arrangements, governments, private investments, etc. mean that some things are reported and others aren't. So it's impossible to accurately compare and contrast success or failure.
6. Pre and post-games events - Most stadiums built for Olympic events hold pre-games and post-games events. Are these counted? If they are counted, wouldn't the economic impact be infinite? I mean, you can't project ahead 30 years to the day when that stadium maybe hosts a World Cup match. Furthermore, just because a stadium isn't being used today doesn't mean it won't have a good use tomorrow.

There's other points but I think that's a pretty good start for why we people are so far off the mark when it comes to talking about the financial realities of mega-events like the Olympics.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

jn_12: You make many good points, but I think you're overthinking the issue. Calgary = good Olympics. Montreal = bad Olympics. Financially, it comes down to how much debt is left after the Games close. As for venues, at least in Canada, a Summer Oly will alway be a boondoggle, because we'll never pack a bunch of people into a track & field stadium that seats 60,000 ever again. (You could make an exception for Edmonton, but Commonwealth is really a pretty crappy place to watch the Eskimos. They still use the Stadium, though.)

 

[BMO]

A bid for 2020 is perfect, and would be quite easily profitable with minor upgrades and extensions needed for the already existing (at that point) pan am games stadiums. I think basically the only thing we'd really need to focus on is building the DRL for this, and potentially riding the athlete's village onto the toronto portlands, which I'm sure will be empty by the time the host city is chosen. By then Sheppard, and Eglinton will be finished, GO Transit will have all day service, and all venues will be easily accessed via public transit.

 

[Asterix]

A bid for 2020 is perfect, and would be quite easily profitable with minor upgrades and extensions needed for the already existing (at that point) pan am games stadiums. I think basically the only thing we'd really need to focus on is building the DRL for this, and potentially riding the athlete's village onto the toronto portlands, which I'm sure will be empty by the time the host city is chosen. By then Sheppard, and Eglinton will be finished, GO Transit will have all day service, and all venues will be easily accessed via public transit.

That sounds a little optimistic. How big are the Pan Am stadiums (and where are they located) compared to what the requirements are for the Olympics?

What is the number of athletes expected for Pan Ams compared to the Olympics?

Given the Eglinton line has been in the works for several years and may be pushing it to be open (not including airport connection) for 2020, is it realistic to believe that funding will just materialize for a DRL that will have the opportunity to be designed, EA'd and build for 2020? It's not like there is even a definitive route, let alone one no lobbying groups are going to want a say in.

Since no one has yet to explain where the money for Sheppard will come from, what leads you to believe it will be completed for 2020? What plans are you aware of that will make facilities such as U of T Scarborough campus accessible by public transit (Sheppard subway isn't planned to go anywhere near there)?

The city is facing an immediate huge budget shortfall and an administration that is loathe to look at any increases in revenues that would be needed to build anything substantive.

The province is facing huge deficits and an impending administration that is campaigning on cutting needless spending (and is similarly loathe to look at any increases in revenues).

The federal government is facing huge deficits and a new majority administration that has not shown itself to be enamoured with dropping billions (not just token millions) on Toronto.

So your scheme is going to work and be funded how?

 

[BMO]

That sounds a little optimistic. How big are the Pan Am stadiums (and where are they located) compared to what the requirements are for the Olympics?

What is the number of athletes expected for Pan Ams compared to the Olympics?

Given the Eglinton line has been in the works for several years and may be pushing it to be open (not including airport connection) for 2020, is it realistic to believe that funding will just materialize for a DRL that will have the opportunity to be designed, EA'd and build for 2020? It's not like there is even a definitive route, let alone one no lobbying groups are going to want a say in.

Since no one has yet to explain where the money for Sheppard will come from, what leads you to believe it will be completed for 2020? What plans are you aware of that will make facilities such as U of T Scarborough campus accessible by public transit (Sheppard subway isn't planned to go anywhere near there)?

The city is facing an immediate huge budget shortfall and an administration that is loathe to look at any increases in revenues that would be needed to build anything substantive.

The province is facing huge deficits and an impending administration that is campaigning on cutting needless spending (and is similarly loathe to look at any increases in revenues).

The federal government is facing huge deficits and a new majority administration that has not shown itself to be enamoured with dropping billions (not just token millions) on Toronto.

So your scheme is going to work and be funded how?

ehh c'mon , someone has to remain optimistic on these forums!

 

[sixrings]

How about the possibility that instead of a waterfront proposal for an olympics a Downsview Parc model is adopted... Then you can save the waterfront for condos but build athletic facilities on an actual park. Also this would cause the federal government to give more money to a sheppard subway. The DRL hasnt even been studied yet and Sheppard is Fords pet project. It seems to make sense if Ford want a NFL team and if ford wants a Sheppard Subway.