Towered
Senior Member
What rights are being infringed upon?
Toronto 175 Cummer | 10.49m | 3s | City of Toronto | Montgomery Sisam
- Thread starter Northern Light
- Start date
taikou
New Member
If you haven't had a chance to read the motions proposed by Councilor Lily Cheng, I would suggest you to carefully go over the motions again and understand the big mistakes the government made, and what rights they are standing up for.
Also, if you would like to response back to my questions, can you address all of them? I also brought up a question that, I never see you guys condemning the government for their bad policies, mismanagement, bureaucracy and selfishness that make all of these social issues out of control in the first place? You guys are not blaming the culprits, but stigmatizing those who are just taking legal procedure to make sure their voice is heard. Who is the hypocrite?
Again, we're just proposing a middle ground solution that, considering the uniqueness of the site, let's make the modular housing abstinence and for seniors only. What's wrong with that?
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
I really don't see why Ward's Section 37 Community Benefit money should be spent to cover the cost of moving this Modular Supportive Housing site since,... this mistake, which is technically fraud was committed by CityStaff! Specifically, the fraudulant application for Federal Grant money prior to having the required Zoning Approval in place. If anything,... the cost should be covered by the salary of CityStaff involved!
175 Cummer | 10.49m | 3s | City of Toronto | Montgomery Sisam
it sounds like you just want to dominate and prevail, without reading what's in those reports. they are saying that they want to build this as affordable housing, but with a condition (suggested by the exact institute who the city seems to go to for these things) that it is an abstinence focused...
Furthermore, CityStaff's lack of Community Information/Consultation to the 600+ Seniors on adjacent lots,... mainly TCHC visiable minorities who primary language is not English without computer or telephone access for City's Virtual Call that were packed with advocates from outside the area
In the meantime,... folks, don't forget to donate to Bayview Cummer Neighbourhood Association's appeal to the OMB/OLT
Donate - Bayview Cummer Neighbourhood Association Inc.
bayviewcummer.ca
Attachments
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Superstar
I really don't see why Ward's Section 37 Community Benefit money should be spent to cover the cost of moving this Modular Supportive Housing site since,... this mistake, which is technically fraud was committed by CityStaff! Specifically, the fraudulant application for Federal Grant money prior to having the required Zoning Approval in place. If anything,... the cost should be covered by the salary of CityStaff involved!
175 Cummer | 10.49m | 3s | City of Toronto | Montgomery Sisam
it sounds like you just want to dominate and prevail, without reading what's in those reports. they are saying that they want to build this as affordable housing, but with a condition (suggested by the exact institute who the city seems to go to for these things) that it is an abstinence focused...urbantoronto.ca
Furthermore, CityStaff's lack of Community Information/Consultation to the 600+ Seniors on adjacent lots,... mainly TCHC visiable minorities who primary language is not English without computer or telephone access for City's Virtual Call that were packed with advocates from outside the area
In the meantime,... folks, don't forget to donate to Bayview Cummer Neighbourhood Association's appeal to the OMB/OLT
Donate - Bayview Cummer Neighbourhood Association Inc.
Northern Light
Superstar
We'll have to differ here.
You seem to have the take that the position of the neighbourhood is reasonable; and notwithstanding that the City has approved the zoning (its under appeal) ....
And that that appeal which has already cost the City a tidy sum, is a reasonable and fair exercise of due process and an area and now Councillor acting in good faith.
(please correct my perception if its off)
I would argue that the neighbourhood association is being entirely disingenuous and would not support this development on, say, nearby Bayview, where it would cut down fewer/no trees and not be next to a seniors home.
That in the absence of that, the objections cited aren't real; the real objection is to any housing of this sort anywhere in the community.
Which, leaves homeless people homeless and dying in the street; I would argue the right to life trumps virtually any other, and that a neighbourhood has a good faith obligation to do its part. I offered what I would see as a contructive alternative the neighbourhood could back (or could have backed more than a year ago).
The fact they still have not come forward with an alternative site all this time later, suggests to me they ought to pay something for their disingenuous delay tactics.
I should add, asking upper middle-income and wealthy households to contribute their fair share to the common good does not strike me as remotely extreme or in any way vengeful.
I'm ok with a park on this site, but house some portion of the homeless in your immediate area, and pay the increase in costs by shifting the proposal to a different site.
It may meet that standard of proof, but it may not, I'd be careful throwing around such allegations, the more litigious might find them actionable.
In any event, any such fraud, would be on the federal gov't, who is not suing as yet to recover their funds, so far as I know; this is not a question of asking the community to cover the original cost of the project, but changes to the project, made at their request.
Moreover, the zoning has been passed by the City, its merely that its under appeal.
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allengeorge
Senior Member
Can you go into very detailed specifics about these bad policies, mismanagement, bureaucracy and selfishness that you believe have caused this situation? We can’t divine what you’re so upset about on those fronts, while we’ve been quite specific about what we want done.
Towered
Senior Member
That's a very long-winded way of avoiding my question.
taikou
New Member
It sounds like a pretty socialistic perception. There is nothing wrong with this sentence as a general principle. The problem is, the term "fair share" has become an ATM for many politicians to squeeze more money from the pockets of the middle class to cover their waste with regards to managing the taxpayer's money. The progressive taxation system in Canada has already taken in the consideration of the wealthier contributing more for the common good. It is very obvious that the middle class in Canada is shrinking sharply.
Northern Light
Superstar
There is nothing wrong with this statement except for the fact that none of it is true or supported by the facts.
Canada has among the lowest rates of effective income tax on middle income, and affluent households in the entire OECD, and comparatively low sales tax rates as well.
I know you have this instinct that you are paying more tax because you see a higher sticker rate; but when you deduct money for your RRSP and your child's RESP and you pay only half-tax on capital gains, and none on interest inside a TFSA and
deduct the cost of your home office, etc etc.; you're paying a lot less than the sticker rate.
News flash, low-income households, on average cannot afford to, and do not put away any money in any of the above, have no capital gains to speak of, and pay nearly the full sticker rate in taxes.
The system is far less progressive than it looks.
I say that, by the way, as someone with an RRSP and with a TFSA and who benefits from lower Capital Gains rates.
I know for a fact I pay a lower tax rate than some people working entry level jobs who make a fraction of what I do.........
I'm just up for admitting that unfairness. One which need not be fixed by vastly higher rates, but far fewer deductions and loopholes.
***
Specifically, in respect of property tax, are you aware that renters in older apartment buildings pay roughly double the rate of property tax of a single-family homeowner?
They pay 2x the SFH rate.
Every year.
So someone who may not be able to afford a house, is asked to pay property tax at twice the rate of someone who can............ how progressive is that? What kind of socialism is that?
Please refrain from posting nonsense that demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of the tax system in Canada.
****
The middle class is shrinking because of rising property values and stagnant wages; not because of taxation. The middle-income tax rate for a resident of Ontario is lower now that it was 30 years ago.
The Federal rates for the 2 lowest tax brackets use to be 17%, and 24%
Today, they are 15%, and 20.5%
Ontario's entry level rate of 5% has never been lower
Small business rates have also never been lower, both federally and provincially.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
The small government crowd doesn't seem to have trouble with using *every* instrument of government to stop this proposal. Someone need to tally up the amount of person-hours their actions have resulted in on the part of the government.
AoD
AoD
taikou
New Member
If you go back to my post, I didn't say that, the progressive Canada taxation system is causing the middle class to be shrinking. I meant, the design of the progressive system is taking the consideration of the social responsibilities of the wealthier contributing for common good. Is it not? If you feel there are too many loopholes in the system, I would definitely support you to fix the loopholes.
Sounds like you are pretty familiar with the social system in Canada and Ontario. You seem to forget that there are many social programs from various level of governments to help the low-income families, such as Canada Child Benefit, Ontario Child Benefit, Child Care Subsidies, Rent Subsidies, Ontario Works, Energy Assistance Programs, HST/GST credits, Ontario Drug Benefit (ODB) Program, Ontario Trillium Benefit, Ontario Student Assistance Program, Ontario Electricity Support Program, Nutrition Programs, Grocery Rebate, etc... But as you also admitted, the middle class in Canada is shrinking, due to the rising property values and stagnant wages. The middle class also needs help, as they have rising mortgages (prime rate from 2.7% to 6.95%) to pay, and skyrocketing living costs to deal with. Where are the help for the hardworking middle class? You still think the middle class should contribute more while they are already sinking?
Lastly, you said that, "They pay 2x the SFH rate". Not meant to challenge you, but can you please provide an evidence so I can learn from it?
Northern Light
Superstar
I will address the above when I have the time, there's a lot there; but not in this thread. I will start a thread in 'General Discussions' explaining how the various programs work (or don't) and why it's not so generous as you may think, for the most part.
But that's getting a bit far away from the project at hand, so I don't want to clog up the thread with all that.
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Superstar
You genuinely think that the shrinking middle class in this country has more to do with taxation than a stagnation in salaries and general earning power while cost of life has continued upwards unabated?
taikou
New Member
I am sure you didn't read my latest response. I was already stating that's not what I meant when I was responding to Northern Light, my friend.
taikou
New Member
Of course, my friend, all level of governments!
Federal level:
Irresponsible Immigration policy: Record high number of immigrants, projected to be 500,000 in 2025. According to the Fraser Institute, https://www.fraserinstitute.org/blogs/if-were-not-ready-immigration-comes-with-heavy-costs, it has raised concerns of whether we can keep up with housing infrastructure. Btw, I welcome immigrants, but the government did not consider our ability to accommodate needed immigrants. Instead, just following the “let them come and hope we build it” philosophy.
Lack of resources allocated to housing: As the housing issue is a super high priority, the government should allocate enough funds to build housing, but they did not. Guess where the money has been wasted? Look at all the bad records of mismanaging projects and thus causing unnecessary delays and excessive costs. You name it. Phoenix Pay System, Gordie Howe International Bridge, Champlain Bridge, Muskrat Falls Hydroelectric Project and ArriveCAN. If they do a slightly better job managing these projects, billions of dollars could be saved and could be used to build more housing.
Provincial level:
There are critics everywhere that, the Ontario government has been slow to respond to the housing challenges faced by the province. Also, the management of social housing in Ontario has faced criticism for inefficiencies and inadequate maintenance. There have been concerns about long waitlists for social housing, lack of investment in repairs and renovations, and so on.
Similar to the federal government for not managing our money wisely. Look at the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, going to be a "never ending" project. Gas Plants scandal, eHealth, etc... How much money has it been wasted? If they could manage the money better, can these money be allocated build a lot more housing?
City level:
Olivia Chow mentioned that" Until a decade ago, the city was actively providing mixed-income housing. Referring to city-built housing in the St. Lawrence neighborhood and elsewhere. “It’s just a lack of political will in the last 10 years that this has not happened.”
Hope I have provided enough examples to show how much bureaucracy, mismanagement, bad policies these governments have done, causing so much taxpayer's money to be wasted and also making the housing issue to be out of control. I want to ask all of you here again. You guys have never blamed the culprits, failed to acknowledge these social issues from the root cause, but stigmatizing those who are just taking legal procedure to make sure their voice is heard. Who is the hypocrite?.
Before we ask the middle class to further contribute their "fair share", maybe we should ask the governments first, where does our money go?
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